Would

Question

Hi,So why had anyone ever used larger tubes if smaller would work?context:  They use a larger tube for drawing blood for adults than children.  But the writer thinks that the larger tube wouldn't be necessary to do the necessary tests. It is probably the first time that I've seen would used in a if-clause.  How should I interpret the if-clause?  So why had anyone ever used larger tubes if it is true that smaller would work?(I used would to take account of the writer's tentativeness)Is this what it means?  Could someone explain this usage of would in a if-clause?Thank you.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

It is just the past tense of 'will' here, I think:

So why has anyone ever used larger tubes if smaller will work?
So why had anyone ever used larger tubes if smaller would work?

Jooney · Answer

Thank you for the reply, Mr. M. I overlooked the main clause was in past perfect tense.

So how should I go about interpreting the if-clause, then?

What kind of meanig does "will(would)" have here?

CalifJim · Answer

jooneyIt is probably the first time that I've seen would used in a if-clause.

Yes. Well, it's rare, so that's not so surprising.

jooneyHow should I interpret the if-clause?

Very carefully. When is an if not an if?

The if in this sentence is not even a hypothetical if. The if-clause does not state a condition there, the consequence of which is given in the main clause, as in a typical conditional statement. In fact the whole thing is a question, and not a statement at all. I take the material in the if-clause to be a matter of fact: The smaller tubes would work (if used). As you said, "It is true that ...". Therefore, in a sort of brain-twisting way, if doesn't mean if here; it means considering that, or when, and there's an implicit conditional if-clause inside there as well, as shown below. The "real if" (the implicit one) is underlined; the "false if" (the explicit one) is capitalized. (It's not really a "false if", of course; it's an if that is to be taken in a different sense from the way we usually take the word if.)

IF/CONSIDERING THAT [the smaller tubes would work (if the smaller tubes were used)] THEN why had anyone used the larger ones?

You may have to study this a little before you understand what I'm showing you here. It's not easy to see right away.

___________________

An aside: Personally, I think it should have been would have worked because of the past perfect in the main clause.

IF/CONSIDERING THAT [the smaller tubes would have worked if the smaller tubes had been used] THEN why had anyone used the larger ones?

I think the author either overlooked that possibility, or he felt that the amount of 'grammatical machinery' necessary to state it that way was excessive.

____________________

You can use the same pattern in all kinds of questions like this, which take the form

Why [a worse course of action] if/when/considering that [another course of action] [would be / would have been] better.

Examples:

Why [did he use / had he used] a hammer to kill the flea [if / when / considering that] a flyswatter [would work / would have worked]?
Why did you go through all those computations [if / when / considering that] you [would get / would have got] the same answer doing the whole problem in your head?
Why had Jerry taken Elm street if Maple street would have been faster?

CJ

Jooney · Answer

Thank you very much for your answer, CJ.

It didn't occur to me that the "implicit conditional" was present in the if-clause. I think that's the key to understanding the whole structure of the if-clause. And you did an awesome job explaining it!

Just one question, though.

The smaller tubes had not been used.

How do you convert this into a counterfactual if-clause?

If the smaller tubes had been used, (they would have worked).

Is this correct?

CalifJim · Answer

jooneyJust one question, though.

The smaller tubes had not been used.

How do you convert this into a counterfactual if-clause?

If the smaller tubes had been used, (they would have worked).

Is this correct?

Yes. That's right.

CJ

Jooney · Answer

I don't think I would have understood all this without your help.  I'm deeply grateful, CJ.<img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

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