Would

Question

The subjunctive mood is about something that is actually not true.

(Example)
Kant, the philosopher, would have made a good poet.

(Actually, Kant was not a good poet)

Then how would you interpret this? Is it really counterfactual?

The burden of carrying babies presented a dilemma for ancestral mothers as they searched for food and water.

To accomplish their tasks, sometimes they would have needed to put their babies down, and these interruptions

in physical contact would have been distressing for babies then as they are now.

Avangi · Accepted Answer

I take the choice to use "would have" as a concession that this is speculation. I'm not sure I'd call it "counterfactual."

We know for a fact that Kant was not a "good poet." We don't know for a fact that the mothers needed to put their babies down, but it's reasonable to assume that they did.

"Would have" in this case implies a condition: If what I'm telling you is actually true, then the mothers would have needed etc.

If you used "would" alone to describe the habitual actions of the ancestral mothers, you would not be treating it as speculation, but as fact:

"The mothers would do this and then the mothers would do that."

CalifJim · Answer

The subjunctive mood is about something that is actually not true.

There are no subjunctives among the examples, so I don't see the relevance of this remark.

'would have' is not subjunctive; it's a modal construction. 'would have' invites the reader into an imagined world (in the past) where speculation may occur about past possibilities. I think it is a mistake to apply the word 'counterfactual' to these examples. The word 'counterfactual' is usually used to speak of the contents of if clauses, and there aren't any if clauses here.

Anyway, the 'would have's in these examples are suppositions, and I don't think a supposition qualifies as a fact, so it can't have truth value; a supposition is neither true nor false. So I don't think facts and counterfacts have anything to do with it.

(I suppose that) Kant would have made a good poet.

(I suppose that) they would have needed to put their babies down.

(I suppose that) the interruptions ... would have been distressing ....

In all of these the speaker could be right, and he could be wrong.

_____________

An alternate interpretation goes like this. The 'would have's are backshifts of the corresponding 'would's.

In the present (as if Kant were still alive), (I suppose that) Kant would make a good poet.

In the past (now that Kant is dead), (I suppose that) Kant would have made a good poet.

Similarly for the others:

They would need to put their babies down. / They would have needed to put their babies down.

The interruptions would be distressing. / The interruptions would have been distressing.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

CalifJimThere are no subjunctives among the examples, so I don't see the relevance of this remark.

Thanks, Jim. I saw that but decided to overlook it.
Yikes! There are so many subjunctives we don't use anymore I'm never 100% sure.

Taka · Answer

CalifJimThe subjunctive mood is about something that is actually not true.

There are no subjunctives among the examples, so I don't see the relevance of this remark. I think it is a mistake to apply the word 'counterfactual' to these examples. The word 'counterfactual' is usually used to speak of the contents of if clauses, and there aren't any if clauses here.

Subjunctives don't always have to be accompanied by if-clauses, do they? Sometimes the subject implies the subjective mood, and sometimes a sentense itself connotes the subjective mood.

A man of common sense wouldn't have done such a thing.

?If he were a man of common sense, he wouldn't have done such a thing.

What with rain and with hunger, I could have wept.

?What with rain and with hunger, I could have wept if I were allowed to do so.

Taka · Answer

Sorry. I mean to say this;

A man of common sense wouldn't have done such a thing.
?If he had been a man of common sense, he wouldn't have done such a thing.

What with rain and with hunger, I could have wept.
?What with rain and with hunger, I could have wept if I had been allowed to do so.[/quote]

CalifJim · Answer

Subjunctives don't always have to be accompanied by if-clauses, do they?

No. In fact, they are almost never accompanied by if-clauses. They are in the if-clauses (though not all if-clauses contain them). Only the underlined portions below are subjunctive.

If he were a man of common sense, he wouldn't have done such a thing.

What with ... if I were allowed ....

I insist that you be ready at noon.

If he had known, he would not have said that.

They demanded that he tell them the truth.

No verb phrase that begins with a modal verb (will, would, can, could, ...) is subjunctive.

Exception: Some analysts say that could is subjunctive in an if-clause: If I could help, I would.

CJ

Taka · Answer

Sorry. My explanation was not clear. What I meant by this:

CalifJimSubjunctives don't always have to be accompanied by if-clauses, do they?

was that a main clause about something unreal didn't always have to be accompanied by an if-clause as the main clause itself connoted the sense of 'if something happened/had happened'.

I learned that a main clause with "could have -ed/would have -ed" implied that there was an unreal condition behind, which was usually expressed by 'if something had/had not happened'.

Would you disagree, JIm?

You don't think 'A man of common sense wouldn't have done such a thing', for example, doesn't necessarily mean 'If he had been a man of common sense, he wouldn't have done such a thing'?

CalifJim · Answer

was that a main clause about something unreal didn't always have to be accompanied by an if-clause as the main clause itself connoted the sense of 'if something happened/had happened'.

Yes, you can have clauses with 'would' or 'would have' without any accompanying if clause.

Moreover, you can almost always invent a plausible if clause to go with such a main clause.

I learned that a main clause with "could have -ed/would have -ed" implied that there was an unreal condition behind, which was usually expressed by 'if something had/had not happened'.

I only disagree to the extent that I have not examined each and every sentence with 'would have' or 'could have' to verify this claim. I suspect there are cases without an accompanying unreal condition. They may be rare, and I can't think of anything just now, but I'm reluctant to say that there is always an unreal condition lurking in the background. Sometimes the unreal condition you can invent is pretty vacuous.

You don't think 'A man of common sense wouldn't have done such a thing', for example, doesn't necessarily mean 'If he had been a man of common sense, he wouldn't have done such a thing'?

Oof! Too many negatives in that sentence to know how to answer! The two sentences are basically equivalent to my ear in any case.

The formula doesn't allow for application universally, however, so I don't know what point it purports to make.

I wouldn't have done such a thing ~ If I had been me, I wouldn't have done such a thing. ???

Are you just trying to find if clauses that could go with the 'would have' clauses you posted first in this thread?

________________

To reiterate, answering your very first question, I don't find anything counterfactual in the given sentence.

CJ

Taka · Answer

OK. So sentences with 'could have-ed/would have -ed' can be about something real, speculation about something real. I see.

Just a couple minor questions to ask about your comments.

CalifJim Sometimes the unreal condition you can invent is pretty vacuous.

And could you explain what you mean by this?

CalifJimI don't know what point it purports to make.

And sorry about this.

CalifJimYou don't think 'A man of common sense wouldn't have done such a thing', for example, doesn't necessarily mean 'If he had been a man of common sense, he wouldn't have done such a thing'?

Oof! Too many negatives in that sentence to know how to answer!

Actually, I meant to say this instead. I forgot to delete 'doesn't':

You don't think 'A man of common sense wouldn't have done such a thing', for example, necessarily mean 'If he had been a man of common sense, he wouldn't have done such a thing'?

CalifJim
I wouldn't have done such a thing ~ If I had been me, I wouldn't have done such a thing. ???J
The grammar books by Japanese authors will say that is the same as this:

I wouldn't have done such a thing?If I had been you, I wouldn't have done such as thing.

CalifJimAre you just trying to find if clauses that could go with the 'would have' clauses you posted first in this thread?
I tired to, but I couldn't come up with any.

CalifJim · Answer

OK. So sentences with 'could have-ed/would have -ed' can be about something real, speculation about something real.

Yes. That sounds reasonable, especially with the example of ancient man in mind.

"Sometimes the unreal condition you can invent is pretty vacuous."

And could you explain what you mean by this?

vacuous ~ uninformative, meaningless, tautologous, uninteresting.

Example: What is the "missing if clause"?

I would agree. ~ If I were in agreement, I would agree.

"Are you just trying to find if clauses that could go with the 'would have' clauses you posted first in this thread?"

I tired to, but I couldn't come up with any.

Some of it is probably implied by the introductory infinitive, if you like that interpretation.

If they had wanted to accomplish their tasks, they would have needed to put their babies down.

If they had put their babies down, it would have caused interruptions in physical contact.

If there had been interruptions in physical contact, the interruptions would have been distressing for the babies.

But as I said, you can also see it as a backshift of the same basic statements with 'would'.

If they wanted to accomplish their tasks, they would need to put their babies down.

If they put their babies down, it would cause interruptions ...

If there were interruptions ..., the interruptions would be distressing ...

Nevertheless, as I wrote above, you can see these as backshifts of the habitual use of 'would', and the backshift would indicate speculation about habits.

Back in the 80s we would go to Disneyland every summer.

In ancient times (we suppose) people would have hunted with bows and arrows.

CJ

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