Women or the women?

Question

Hi,1. You should see some of the messages left by women on that site.2. You should see some of the messages left by the women on that site."Women" or "the women"? I am talking about these women for the first time. I think I can choose either one (I would choose the one with the article). Without the article, I think it's more "some" (basically, more than one). With the article, it's all or almost all the women on that site. Either way, it's correct. Yes?And does the same apply to:(The) girls in my school were pretty. Is "girls" without the article grammatically correct?

GPY · Accepted Answer

If it is the first mention of the women, then (2) seems to suggest more strongly that these women "belong to" the site in some way, e.g. have registered as members.

MariaRC · Answer

GPYIf it is the first mention of the women, then (2) seems to suggest more strongly that these women "belong to" the site in some way, e.g. have registered as members.

Thanks, GPY. It's the first mention. You say that (2) seems to suggest more strongly. But #1 is still correct, right?

And is "girls" okay without the definite in my 2nd example (also first mention of these girls). Thank you!

GPY · Answer

MariaRCThanks, GPY. It's the first mention. You say that (2) seems to suggest more strongly. But #1 is still correct, right?

#1 is correct English. The nuance is slightly different as I have described, though it is not a black and white distinction.

MariaRCAnd is "girls" okay without the definite in my 2nd example (also first mention of these girls). Thank you!

It is correct English without the article, but it may sound a bit vague. If you want to avoid an implication that all or most girls were pretty, I would recommend a specific quantification, such as "Some of the girls at my school were pretty". Personally I would probably use "at" rather than "in".

MariaRC · Answer

GPY#1 is correct English. The nuance is slightly different as I have described, though it is not a black and white distinction.

Understood. Thank you.

GPYIt is correct English without the article, but it may sound a bit vague. If you want to avoid an implication that all or most girls were pretty, I would recommend a specific quantification, such as "Some of the girls at my school were pretty". Personally I would probably use "at" rather than "in".

Thank you, understood as well. But, I cannot for the life of me understand why it's not at all vague to say "girls in Paris are pretty" without resorting to a quantification like "some of the girls in Paris are pretty", while it's rather vague with "school". Is it because of the size of the group?

CalifJim · Answer

MariaRCWomen" or "the women"? I am talking about these women for the first time.

I don't think first mention is relevant in this case.

The use of "the" pulls the phrase "on that site" into the same noun phrase. Which women? The women on that site.

The absence of "the" tends to let "on that site" become an adverbial of place modifying "left". Where were the messages left? On that site.

... messages left by women on that site. ~ messages on that site left by women.

This equivalence is less easily drawn with "the women".

CJ

MariaRC · Answer

CalifJimI don't think first mention is relevant in this case. The use of "the" pulls the phrase "on that site" into the same noun phrase. Which women? The women on that site. The absence of "the" tends to let "on that site" become an adverbial of place modifying "left". Where were the messages left? On that site.... messages left by women on that site. ~ messages on that site left by women.This equivalence is less easily drawn with "the women".CJ

Thank you, CJ. Would you agree that the decision as to whether to use the definite article with a plural noun depends on the size of the group? What I mean:

GPY mentioned that "girls at my school were pretty" is correct but vague. If I want to say that only "some" girls were pretty, it is better to say "some of the girls at my school were pretty". But this wouldn't apply to "women in Paris are gorgeous". In fact, the definite article is probably redundant here. There's no need to say, "some of the women in Paris are gorgeous". Does the size of the group play a role then?

CalifJim · Answer

MariaRCWould you agree that the decision as to whether to use the definite article with a plural noun depends on the size of the group?

No. I really don't see how that's relevant. There may be ambiguity regardless of the size of the group.

CJ

MariaRC · Answer

CalifJim MariaRCWould you agree that the decision as to whether to use the definite article with a plural noun depends on the size of the group?No. I really don't see how that's relevant. There may be ambiguity regardless of the size of the group.CJ

I see. Well, as long as ambiguity is not incorrectness!

Thank you both, GPY and CalifJim!

GPY · Answer

CalifJimI don't think first mention is relevant in this case.

I think it may be. If a group of women have previously been mentioned, then "You should see some of the messages left by the women on that site" may mean that group of women.

GPY · Answer

MariaRCGPY mentioned that "girls at my school were pretty" is correct but vague. If I want to say that only "some" girls were pretty, it is better to say "some of the girls at my school were pretty". But this wouldn't apply to "women in Paris are gorgeous". In fact, the definite article is probably redundant here. There's no need to say, "some of the women in Paris are gorgeous". Does the size of the group play a role then?

One difference is that we know more certainly that not all women in Paris are gorgeous than that not all the girls at your school were pretty, so "some" seems more redundant.

Women or the women?

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