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Usenet Posted 21 years ago
Usage
"With whom?" and "Who with?"
Does anybody know at what point in the history of English (in England) it became possible to say, e.g:-
"Who are you going out with tonight?"
i.e. not only reversing the two words "with" and "whom" but actually separating them.
A linked question is when did "whom" first become optional in everyday speech? I imagine that it was once obligatory, as "him", "her", "them", etc., still are, after prepositions and as the objects of verbs.
Regards,
Adetola Obembe.
"Who are you going out with tonight?"
i.e. not only reversing the two words "with" and "whom" but actually separating them.
A linked question is when did "whom" first become optional in everyday speech? I imagine that it was once obligatory, as "him", "her", "them", etc., still are, after prepositions and as the objects of verbs.
Regards,
Adetola Obembe.
Top answer
[nq:1] A linked question is when did "whom" first become optional in everyday speech? [/nq] Instead of "obligatory", did you perhaps mean to say "natural"? \\P.
- [nq:1] A linked question is when did "whom" first become optional in everyday speech?
- [/nq] Instead of "obligatory", did you perhaps mean to say "natural"?
- \\P.
- Schultz
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34 Answers
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[nq:1] A linked question is when did "whom" first become optional in everyday speech? I imagine that it was once obligatory, as "him", "her", "them", etc., still are, after prepositions and as the objects of verbs.[/nq]
Instead of "obligatory", did you perhaps mean to
say "natural"?
\\P. Schultz
Instead of "obligatory", did you perhaps mean to
say "natural"?
\\P. Schultz
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Adetola Obembe:
[nq:1]A linked question is when did "whom" first become optional in everyday speech? ...[/nq]
The OED1 lists the objective use of "who" as a separate sense, or rather two separate senses (pronoun and conjunction). The two earliest cites have only approximate dates, 1300 and 1400 respectively. The first cite with an exact date is from 1450. (Only one of these three actually
[nq:1]A linked question is when did "whom" first become optional in everyday speech? ...[/nq]
The OED1 lists the objective use of "who" as a separate sense, or rather two separate senses (pronoun and conjunction). The two earliest cites have only approximate dates, 1300 and 1400 respectively. The first cite with an exact date is from 1450. (Only one of these three actually
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[nq:1]Instead of "obligatory", did you perhaps mean to say "natural"?[/nq]
I've just looked up various definitions of "obligatory" on the web. The following best describes what I meant to say:-
[nq:1]Imposed on one by authority, command, or convention[/nq]
- in this case, convention. What I really meant was, was there a time when there was no known grammatical alternative to "whom" to
I've just looked up various definitions of "obligatory" on the web. The following best describes what I meant to say:-
[nq:1]Imposed on one by authority, command, or convention[/nq]
- in this case, convention. What I really meant was, was there a time when there was no known grammatical alternative to "whom" to
00
[nq:1]The two earliest cites have only approximate dates, 1300 and 1400 respectively. The first cite with an exact date is from 1450.[/nq]
Thanks, Mark. I'm astonished. I imagined it would have been an early 20th century phenomenon, 19th century at most - probably because I've never seen it used in any 19th century novels, even when characters from the "lower" classes are speaking.
Regards
Thanks, Mark. I'm astonished. I imagined it would have been an early 20th century phenomenon, 19th century at most - probably because I've never seen it used in any 19th century novels, even when characters from the "lower" classes are speaking.
Regards
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[nq:2]The two earliest cites have only approximate dates, 1300 and 1400 respectively. The first cite with an exact date is from 1450.[/nq]
[nq:1]Thanks, Mark. I'm astonished. I imagined it would have been an early 20th century phenomenon, 19th century at most - probably because I've never seen it used in any 19th century novels, even when characters from the "lower" classes are speaking.[/nq]
[nq:1]Thanks, Mark. I'm astonished. I imagined it would have been an early 20th century phenomenon, 19th century at most - probably because I've never seen it used in any 19th century novels, even when characters from the "lower" classes are speaking.[/nq]
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Thanks, Donna. The "who are you going" search was the more interesting of the two. Obviously my observations on 19th century literature were completely wrong. Apparently the Victorians etc. weren't quite as "correct" as I'd imagined. And the site too is an excellent resource.
Regards,
Adetola.
Regards,
Adetola.
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[nq:1]What I really meant was, was there a time when there was no known grammatical alternative to "whom" to any native English speaker? For example, by convention, no one speaking even informal or colloquial standard English today would say: "I'm speaking to he" [/nq]
But they DO say "It's difficult for my wife and I
to plan a vacation." It is a general and pervasive usage, employed by mi
But they DO say "It's difficult for my wife and I
to plan a vacation." It is a general and pervasive usage, employed by mi
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[nq:1]But they DO say "It's difficult for my wife and I to plan a vacation." It is a general and pervasive usage, employed by millions of educated people.[/nq]
Though perversely it's because such people know "my wife and I are planning a vacation" and not "my wife and me are planning one". As for "for my wife and I", they use it because they self-consciously believe it to be correct. The same
Though perversely it's because such people know "my wife and I are planning a vacation" and not "my wife and me are planning one". As for "for my wife and I", they use it because they self-consciously believe it to be correct. The same
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[nq:2]What I really meant was, was there a time when ... standard English today would say: "I'm speaking to he" [/nq]
[nq:1]But they DO say "It's difficult for my wife and I to plan a vacation." It is a general and pervasive usage, employed by millions of educated people.[/nq]
Data point: Jasper Fforde seems to find "between and I" completely natural. At first I thought he was simply adhe
[nq:1]But they DO say "It's difficult for my wife and I to plan a vacation." It is a general and pervasive usage, employed by millions of educated people.[/nq]
Data point: Jasper Fforde seems to find "between and I" completely natural. At first I thought he was simply adhe
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[nq:1] As for "for my wife and I", they use it because they self-consciously believe it to be correct. [/nq]
Everything that you say is said because you
self-consciously believe it to be correct, so I
don't see the point of your statement.
The majority of people who use that form do so
because that is the English that they have
acquired from their elders and their conventio
Everything that you say is said because you
self-consciously believe it to be correct, so I
don't see the point of your statement.
The majority of people who use that form do so
because that is the English that they have
acquired from their elders and their conventio
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