Wished that all the men ~~

Question

Flies, mosquitoes and gnats hovered in droning, singing swarms over the wards, tormenting the men to curses and weak sobs; and Scarlett, scratching her own mosquito bites, swung palmetto fans until her shoulders ached and she wished that all the men were dead.    (Gone with the Wind, Margaret Mitchell)*** *** ***Hi, If we change the underlined part into "all the men had been dead", then of what meaning will it be?  Maybe, "all the men have the experienc of being dead"?

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi,

How does someone have the experience of being dead?

Clive

Pructus · Answer

Yes, you are right, Clive....It makes no sense.What exact meaning will it be, if it's "all the men had been dead"?Sorry about the format that my posting is in. I can not make it right, now.

Clive · Answer

Hi,

It sounds lik a rather old-fashioned and stiff way of saying
'she wished that all the men were dead'.

Clive

Pructus · Answer

I see... Even though I hear what you say,  I can't feel it like you do..I just can't feel which is more stiff way of saying... But yoiur answer itself helps a lot...Thanks...

CalifJim · Answer

pructusshe wished that all the men were dead.

The men were alive, but the cause of much trouble to Scarlett, so she wished that they were dead.
All of these things are occurring at the same time: They are alive. Scarlett is miserable. She wishes them to be dead (because this would end her misery). This makes sense.
_____________

If she wished that they had been dead, she would be wishing that they had been dead before they ever became the cause of her trouble. But if they had been dead, they would never have become the cause of her trouble because it was the living men that caused her misery.

'had been dead' places their deaths before her misery at the fact that they are alive. This gives the picture that they had already died, but later they made her miserable because they were still alive, so she wishes that they had already died before she was troubled by the fact that they had not died - an impossible situation. So this version makes no sense.

CJ

Pructus · Answer

Oh, I see....

Your explanation just gives me the picture of "were" and "had been". I feel really filled in with. (Hope it's corret adn to-the-point expression)

Thanks, CJ !!

And, I guess, considering Clive's explanation, maybe many native speakers do not care very much about the exact difference betwen "were" and "had been" as shown in this case. Maybe they don't need to clarify the difference.

I remember watching Desperate Housewives... There a young trouble-making boy says to a woman.,who was mother of three children, some thing like, "I wish you were my mother". And then after several months, when the boy commits some crime, and it happens that the boy and the woman were alone together. The boy needed her help to get out of the crime scene.

There the woman mentions something like, "Before, you said to me that you wished I had been your mother". Here, "had been" was used. And, I made that "were" and "had been" is interchangeable.

But after your explanation, I guess I need to give it some more thought. Maybe the reason that the woman used "had been" was that the "were" was used before and she is referring to it later?

The tense in Enlgish is so not easy to get a good grasp.

CalifJim · Answer

pructusMaybe the reason that the woman used "had been" was that the "were" was used before and she is referring to it later?

Exactly.

The first time the boy says "I wish you were my mother".
Later the woman reports what the boy said earlier as "You said that you wished I had been your mother".

So "wished ... had been" is the past of "wish ... were".

CJ

Pructus · Answer

I see....Thanks, CJ !!

Wished that all the men ~~

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