Will in If Clause

Question

My study and queries here and there somewhat have led me to believe American English is a bit more tolarent of the "If ... will ..., ..." construct. Nonetheless, it seems the form should be best avoided except when it is used to make a request. If it is true, it should be limited to "If you will ..., ...," such as "If you will (please) come and see us, we will give you more details." No "If he/she/it/they will ..., ...." "If he will please ..., ..." sounds a tad strange. Or, does it?

What do you think?

Hiro

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

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No, the other persons do not seem strange. You should be clear, however, that in your samples, you are using 'will' in its ( less common) sense of exercise of willpower. It is not a future form. There is a difference between these:

If you come, I will buy you lunch.
If you will let me, I will buy you lunch.

HSS · Answer

Thanks, MM.

Yes, the second one is more like "If you are willing to let me, I will buy you lunch."

Could you please come up with examples with "If he will ...," "If she will ...," etc.? I' d appreciate it, MM.

Hiro

CalifJim · Answer

If the patient will be here at 10 tomorrow morning, we can do the blood test then. You'd better call him right away and see if that time is OK with him.

We would like to state our views to the president if he will see us today.

If the city will grant the permit, the demonstators will march next Tuesday.

Mrs. Smith can be the proud owner of this house if she will only sign these papers before Monday.

If passenger Jones will kindly step up to the ticket counter, we can take care of his upgrade request immediately.

This kind of "will" is based on consent, assent, acquiescence, agreement, or concurrence with someone's wishes. It is therefore impossible with situations that don't involve people. Thus, the following is not at all natural.

*If the water will overflow the tank, we will have a big problem to fix.

Not all usages of "if ... will ..." involve willingness or consent, however.

I'll be glad to lend him the CD if he will enjoy it.

CJ

HSS · Answer

CalifJimNot all usages of "if ... will ..." involve willingness or consent, however.

I'll be glad to lend him the CD if he will enjoy it.

So, what you should be aware of may be:

1) "If non-human (non-animal) will ..." is not natural.

2) "If human (animal) will" could be used if it expressed willingness, consent, assent, acquiescence, agreement, or concurrence, and if the main clause that follows stands natural in relation to the if-clause.

3) "If human (animal) will" could be also used otherwise, as quoted above, but how could we label the usage? Do you have any idea? There may be more than one category, but I can't seem to come up with any labels for your quoted example and for any other possible examples. (There may possibly be other categories ....)

Hiro

CalifJim · Answer

HSS3) "If human (animal) will" could be also used otherwise, as quoted above, but how could we label the usage? Do you have any idea? There may be more than one category, but I can't seem to come up with any labels for your quoted example and for any other possible examples. (There may possibly be other categories ....)

I understand your desire to classify all possible uses of if ... will ..., but I think that is a big research project. I don't know of a good label to use for that last example, but I'll try to think of one. Perhaps it can just be called simple future.

CJ

HSS · Answer

This kind of "will" is based on consent, assent, acquiescence, agreement, or concurrence with someone's wishes. It is therefore impossible with situations that don't involve people.

I forgot to ask you one more query. What about the "will" of request. Could a non-human (non-animal) be the subject of the if-clause?

I understand your desire to classify all possible uses of if ... will ..., but I think that is a big research project. I don't know of a good label to use for that last example, but I'll try to think of one. Perhaps it can just be called simple future.

Simple future --- Could you verify if the following are acceptable?

If he'll rejoice at the news, we'll rejoice too.
If you'll be sent to the meeting, you'll read all the notes in advance. (I
If Alice will be in the jail, Bruce will be certainly notified of it.

Can you think of "if non-human/non-animal subject will ..., ... will ... " with the first "will" meaning simple future?

English is fun, because it's so deep our adventure into it never ends!

CalifJim · Answer

HSSWhat about the "will" of request. Could a non-human (non-animal) be the subject of the if-clause?

In my opinion, this could only be used in a joking way, if at all. Maybe you can think of an example.

HSSCould you verify if the following are acceptable?

If he'll rejoice at the news, we'll rejoice too.
If you'll be sent to the meeting, you'll read all the notes in advance. (I
If Alice will be in the jail, Bruce will be certainly notified of it.

The first is perhaps possible. It seems to be an unusual example of 'bargaining will'. More typically there is something more realistic to bargain about: If you'll pay for the pizza, I'll pay for the beer. The second is not idiomatic. In my opinion, the main clause of the second can only be interpreted as a rather strange form of command. You WILL read all the notes. It seems to be trying to say If you are sent to the meeting, you should read all the notes in advance. The third is also unidiomatic. The normal version is If Alice is in jail, Bruce will certainly be notified of it.

HSSCan you think of "if non-human/non-animal subject will ..., ... will ... " with the first "will" meaning simple future?

I'll give that new carpet cleaner a try if it'll work. (if the claims of its effectiveness are true, if you are sure that it will be effective)

CJ

HSS · Answer

CalifJim
HSSWhat about the "will" of request. Could a non-human (non-animal) be the subject of the if-clause?
In my opinion, this could only be used in a joking way, if at all. Maybe you can think of an example.
How about "If the fog will please suck in the entire city, we will break into all the houses." This may not be funny, but my mind says it works as an example of this class.
HSSCould you verify if the following are acceptable?

If he'll rejoice at the news, we'll rejoice too.
If you'll be sent to the meeting, you'll read all the notes in advance.
If Alice will be in the jail, Bruce will be certainly notified of it.
The second is not idiomatic. In my opinion, the main clause of the second can only be interpreted as a rather strange form of command. You WILL read all the notes. It seems to be trying to say If you are sent to the meeting, you should read all the notes in advance. This led me to wonder if "If you'll be sent to the meeting, you should read all the notes in advance" sound okay.

The third is also unidiomatic. The normal version is If Alice is in jail, Bruce will certainly be notified of it. Doesn't this sound more like Bruce will certainly be informed that Alice is in jail if it happens? I intended for it to sound more like he will be notified as the police decide to put her in jail. (Obviously she is not yet in the jail when he is informed if it ever happens)
HSSCan you think of "if non-human/non-animal subject will ..., ... will ... " with the first "will" meaning simple future?
I'll give that new carpet cleaner a try if it'll work. You can also say "if it works" and mean the same, can't you?

Thanks profoundly, CJ.

Hiro

CalifJim · Answer

HSSHow about "If the fog will please suck in the entire city, we will break into all the houses." This may not be funny, but my mind says it works as an example of this class.

Yes, that works as the sort of example you were looking for.

HSS"If you'll be sent to the meeting, you should read all the notes in advance"

Does it sound OK? Not really. The directionality seems wrong. It needs to be something like this: If you'll go to the meeting for me, I'll give you all the notes so you can read them in advance.

HSSI intended for it to sound more like he will be notified as the police decide to put her in jail. (Obviously she is not yet in the jail when he is informed if it ever happens)

Hmmm. I think we native speakers would resort to a different turn of phrase in that case. Bill will be notified if the police [decide / intend] to put Alice in jail. The police will notify Bill if they [decide / intend] to put Alice in jail. "going to" might even be used. The police will notify Bill if they are going to put Alice in jail. Bill will be notified if Alice is going to be put in jail.

HSSI'll give that new carpet cleaner a try if it'll work. You can also say "if it works" and mean the same, can't you?

Yes, more or less. The tiny difference is that if it works connotes "if it always works (generally)"; if it'll work connotes "if it will work for me on the specific occasion when I use it".

CJ

HSS · Answer

I'll be glad to lend him the CD if he will enjoy it.

I'll give that new carpet cleaner a try if it'll work.

We don't seem to usually use "if ... will ..." in conditional sentences with the "will" meaning simple future. But my analytical look thus far into many example somewhat tells me that we can use the form when in the if-clause we talk about a result of something that the main clause talks about, and that, in that case, the if clause comes after the main clause.

Here are some of the sentences that I made up as per my observation, CJ:

I'll open the window if it will help you sleep.
I'll show you my collection of ancient glasses if it will help you with your study at college.

We are sure the resident director will turn on the airconditioning of your dorm if it will help you all study more efficiently.
Joe will come see you if you will be pleased.

Will in If Clause

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