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Usenet Posted 19 years ago
Usage
Who took the carrot back off the stick?
I know the correctness and origin of various carrot-and-stick expressions was repeatedly hashed out in AUE years ago. I don't mean to resurrect that argument. What I'm interested in is the change in common usage that I've observed since then.
With all due respect to Truly Donovan and the intelligence of donkeys, TR and Churchill notwithstanding, until recent years I almost always heard "carrot and stick" used to mean an ever-receding incentive (carrot *on* a stick). The clever farmer hanging a carrot from a stick tied to the donkey's head is a joke everyone's known for a century or more, the central metaphor of probably hundreds of cartoons over that time, and to ignore it always seemed as odd and naive to me as, say, talking unironically about "a modest proposal."
Now, though, you can hardly go a day without hearng some reporter or government official or middle manager talk about carrots and sticks as alternatives of proffered reward and punishment (carrot *or* stick). So who was it that missed the joke? Was there some watershed use a couple years ago that brought this recent flood of unattached carrots and sticks into common parlance? Did it come, as one response to this blog entry suggests, straight out of the mouths of the Bush administration?
http://portipont.blogspot.com/2005/11/carrot-and-stick.html
¬R
With all due respect to Truly Donovan and the intelligence of donkeys, TR and Churchill notwithstanding, until recent years I almost always heard "carrot and stick" used to mean an ever-receding incentive (carrot *on* a stick). The clever farmer hanging a carrot from a stick tied to the donkey's head is a joke everyone's known for a century or more, the central metaphor of probably hundreds of cartoons over that time, and to ignore it always seemed as odd and naive to me as, say, talking unironically about "a modest proposal."
Now, though, you can hardly go a day without hearng some reporter or government official or middle manager talk about carrots and sticks as alternatives of proffered reward and punishment (carrot *or* stick). So who was it that missed the joke? Was there some watershed use a couple years ago that brought this recent flood of unattached carrots and sticks into common parlance? Did it come, as one response to this blog entry suggests, straight out of the mouths of the Bush administration?
http://portipont.blogspot.com/2005/11/carrot-and-stick.html
¬R
Top answer
[nq:1]Now, though, you can hardly go a day without hearng some reporter or government official or middle manager talk about ... [/nq] Nah. It's been a dichotomy for well over a century: Accordingly, as we have seen, praise and blame were to him mere instruments for the formation of expedient characters, by an arbitrary associateion of pleasurable ideas with expedient actions.
- [nq:1]Now, though, you can hardly go a day without hearng some reporter or government official or middle manager talk about ...
- [/nq] Nah.
- It's been a dichotomy for well over a century: Accordingly, as we have seen, praise and blame were to him mere instruments for the formation of expedient characters, by an arbitrary associateion of pleasurable ideas with expedient actions.
- They were to man what carrots or sticks are to a horse or an *** engines of manufacture, not revelations of truth.
- It was this carrot and stick discipline to which Mr.
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61 Answers
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[nq:1]Now, though, you can hardly go a day without hearng some reporter or government official or middle manager talk about ... Did it come, as one response to this blog entry suggests, straight out of the mouths of the Bush administration?[/nq]
Nah. It's been a dichotomy for well over a century:
Accordingly, as we have seen, praise and blame were to him mere instruments for the forma
Nah. It's been a dichotomy for well over a century:
Accordingly, as we have seen, praise and blame were to him mere instruments for the forma
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Stick never referred to the method by which the carrot was offered. The method of offering has no relevance to the intended meaning of the phrase.
Stick and carrot was always a reference to pos. and neg. incentivisation - a metaphor rather than an abstract from a farming manual.
Stick and carrot was always a reference to pos. and neg. incentivisation - a metaphor rather than an abstract from a farming manual.
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Glenn Knickerbocker filted:
[nq:1]I know the correctness and origin of various carrot-and-stick expressions was repeatedly hashed out in AUE years ago. I don't ... it come, as one response to this blog entry suggests, straight out of the mouths of the Bush administration? http://portipont.blogs
[nq:1]I know the correctness and origin of various carrot-and-stick expressions was repeatedly hashed out in AUE years ago. I don't ... it come, as one response to this blog entry suggests, straight out of the mouths of the Bush administration? http://portipont.blogs
00
[nq:1]I know the correctness and origin of various carrot-and-stick expressions was repeatedly hashed out in AUE years ago. I don't mean to resurrect that argument.[/nq]
What you call hashing and arguing, I call establishing the facts. Sounds to me as if you could use a few facts to anchor yourself.
[nq:1]What I'm interested in is the change in common usage that I've observed since then.[/
What you call hashing and arguing, I call establishing the facts. Sounds to me as if you could use a few facts to anchor yourself.
[nq:1]What I'm interested in is the change in common usage that I've observed since then.[/
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Donna Richoux filted:
I can take it back as far as the 1923 Our Gang comedy "Back Stage", where something like it was used to turn Dinah the mule into the motive force for the kids' "tour bus"..r
"He come in the night when one sleep on a bed.
With a hand he have the basket and foods."
- David Sedaris explains the Easter rabbit
I can take it back as far as the 1923 Our Gang comedy "Back Stage", where something like it was used to turn Dinah the mule into the motive force for the kids' "tour bus"..r
"He come in the night when one sleep on a bed.
With a hand he have the basket and foods."
- David Sedaris explains the Easter rabbit
00
[nq:1]I know the correctness and origin of various carrot-and-stick expressions was repeatedly hashed out in AUE years ago. I don't ... it come, as one response to this blog entry suggests, straight out of the mouths of the Bush administration? http://portipont.blogspot.com/2005/11/carrot-and-stick
00
[nq:2]Now, though, you can hardly go a day without hearng ... suggests, straight out of the mouths of the Bush administration?[/nq]
[nq:1]Now, now, no need for hyperbole. It hasn't been a century.[/nq]
Actually, it has, at least for the reward-or-punishment sense. I cited it back to 1876 in another article, where praise and blame were called "carrot and stick discipline".
I see the not
[nq:1]Now, now, no need for hyperbole. It hasn't been a century.[/nq]
Actually, it has, at least for the reward-or-punishment sense. I cited it back to 1876 in another article, where praise and blame were called "carrot and stick discipline".
I see the not
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[nq:1]It's been a dichotomy for well over a century:[/nq]
I see no dichotomy between any of these examples.
[nq:1]Accordingly, as we have seen, praise and blame were to him mere instruments for the formation of expedient characters, by ... carrot in front of an ***) and a big stick behind. Wilfrid Blunt, My Diaries , entry of 4/30/1914 [/nq]
Mark Brader, Toronto > "I like work; it f
I see no dichotomy between any of these examples.
[nq:1]Accordingly, as we have seen, praise and blame were to him mere instruments for the formation of expedient characters, by ... carrot in front of an ***) and a big stick behind. Wilfrid Blunt, My Diaries , entry of 4/30/1914 [/nq]
Mark Brader, Toronto > "I like work; it f
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[nq:1]to rehash, did we date the cartoon trick as older than the simple reward/punishment?[/nq]
I didn't say or mean to suggest it was older. On the contrary, I meant to suggest it was an innovation, but one old enough to be familiar to just about everyone.
[nq:2]the central metaphor of probably hundreds of cartoons[/nq]
[nq:1]Show me six.[/nq]
Six in the first page of re
I didn't say or mean to suggest it was older. On the contrary, I meant to suggest it was an innovation, but one old enough to be familiar to just about everyone.
[nq:2]the central metaphor of probably hundreds of cartoons[/nq]
[nq:1]Show me six.[/nq]
Six in the first page of re
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[nq:1]Even here, though, the carrot is on a "pole" rather than a stick, and the context is contrasting it to animals being beaten.[/nq]
Interesting. I always figured the carrot was tied to the stick that had failed to beat the donkey into motion. I must have read a particular story or cartoon with that twist.
¬R Blather, Rinse, Repeat.
Interesting. I always figured the carrot was tied to the stick that had failed to beat the donkey into motion. I must have read a particular story or cartoon with that twist.
¬R Blather, Rinse, Repeat.
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