Who advise "them"

Question

Hi teachers,It is now conventional wisdom that the world has avoided a second Great Depression.  Governments and the economists who advise them learned the lessons of the 1930s.Where does this "them" refer to?Thank you.Tinanam

Cool Breeze · Accepted Answer

Them refers to governments. The meaning would be clearer if commas were used: Governments, and the economists who advise them, learned the lessons of the 1930s.

CB

Tinanam0102 · Answer

Hi Cool Breeze,

Thank you for your help.

1. So it's the governments that learned the lessons, but not the both, governments and the economists?

2. Does a pronoun always refer to the nearest noun?

3. I'd like to know if there's a rule or a structure to guide me on the use of the pronouns. Or you just have to understand the meaning of the sentence first?

Thank you.

Tinanam

Cool Breeze · Answer

tinanam01021. So it's the governments that learned the lessons, but not the both, governments and the economists?

In my opinion the sentence says that both learned the lessons but the economists advise governments.

tinanam01022. Does a pronoun always refer to the nearest noun?

I don't think so. It's impossible to give a hard and fast rule that always applies.

tinanam01023. I'd like to know if there's a rule or a structure to guide me on the use of the pronouns. Or you just have to understand the meaning of the sentence first?

I don't think there's a universal rule.

CB

Tinanam0102 · Answer

Hi Cool Breeze,

Thank you.

Tinanam

Cool Breeze · Answer

tinanam0102Governments and the economists who advise them learned the lessons of the 1930s.

I was a little pressed for time when I replied to your post and didn't realise that the conjunction and is what determines the meaning here. Take this short sentence as an excample:

Tom and Mary know it.

Both Tom and Mary know it.This is obvious from the grammatical plural form of know in the sentence. And is a co-ordinating conjunction. If only one of the two knew it, we would say:

Tom or Mary knows it.

Similarly:

Governments and the economists learned the lessons of the 1930s.

The relative clause (who advise them) just gives some information about the economists: the economists advise governments.

CB

Tinanam0102 · Answer

Hi Cool Breeze,

I had read many times over and weren't able to figure that out. Now I understand.

Thank you so much.

Tinanam

Clive · Answer

Hi,

governments

Clive

CalifJim · Answer

tinanam0102It is now conventional wisdom that the world has avoided a second Great Depression. Governments and the economists who advise them learned the lessons of the 1930s.
Where does this "them" refer to?

Pronouns can only refer to nouns. I have underlined all the nouns. them always refers to a plural noun. Only two nouns of the five underlined are plural: governments and economists. them has to refer to one of those two.

But if economists is the reference, the sentence is grammatically wrong. If the economists advise "them", the economists advise the economists. If this is the intended meaning, it has to be written the economists who advise themselves, not the economists who advise them, because within the same clause the correct pronoun is themselves, not them.

Consequently, if the sentence is grammatically correct -- and there is no reason to think it is not -- the only noun that "them" can refer to is "governments".

Besides the grammatical explanation above, there is also the practical explanation based on common sense. Why would economists advise themselves?

CJ

Tinanam0102 · Answer

Hi Clive, hi CalifJim,

Thank you very much.

Tinanam

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