Which is correct/better?

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1. Do you know what is the name of the girl in pink over there?2. Do you know what the name of the girl in pink over there is?I've learned that Subject and verb should be inverted in Embedded questions. but what about those above?  #1 is  ungrammatical because it is a question within a question ( a violation of a grammar rule, but not sure which one). Whereas #2 follows the rule but sounds awkward to me.what do you think?

Sam1947 · Accepted Answer

It would be less ackward to say, "Do you know the name of the girl in pink over there?"

Dimsumexpress · Answer

LATO1. Do you know what is the name of the girl in pink over there?

The sentence sounds unnatural to me. I would paraphrase it to one of the following forms:
See that girl in pink over there? Do you know what her name is?
Do you know the girl in pink over there? What is her name?

LATO · Answer

sam1947It would be less ackward to say, "Do you know the name of the girl in pink over there?"

Thanks SAm.

But what about these;

1. Do you know where is the man who was just right here a few minutes ago.

2. Do you know where the man who was just right here a few minutes ago is?

Of course, the word "whereabouts" is a good substitute for "where". But, my point is how should it be better said without changing words/ substitution?

thanks

Markroe · Answer

The following would be more correct:  Do you know where the man is who was just right here a few minutes ago? (The word "just" is unnecessary. I suggest you omit it.)

CalifJim · Answer

sam1947It would be less ackward

I wouldn't say anything, except I've seen this in many of your posts. It's "awkward".

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

LATOI've learned that Subject and verb should be inverted in Embedded questions.

I think you meant to say that these are not inverted in this case. Subject-verb inversion applies to direct questions.

You can say that. (Statement form)

How can you say that? (Direct)

I don't know how you can say that. (Indirect, i.e., embedded)

LATObut what about those above?

Same thing. The second one is the correct one. Nevertheless, it's not the best example, because it's not idiomatic. We would normally not use such a complex structure, saying instead:

Do you know the name of the girl in pink over there?

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

LATOBut what about these;

1. Do you know where is the man who was just right here a few minutes ago.

2. Do you know where the man who was just right here a few minutes ago is?

Again, the second is correct.

I see here, though, that in both of your examples you are concerned with a topic called "heavy movement" -- which is a fancy name for moving things around from their usual positions because a lot of words are in the way and causing difficulty in communicating the meaning.

So, although sentence 2 above is grammatically correct, the question word "where" is separated from the verb "is" by a lot of words (the "heavy clause"). In these cases it's customary to move things around so that the question word and the verb are closer, thus creating a much better sentence:

Do you know where the man is who was just right here a few minutes ago?

Note that the subject and verb (man, is) still remain uninverted. You don't want to move "is" any farther to the left than is shown above.

CJ

Sam1947 · Answer

I would say, "Do you know where the man is now who was here just a few minutes ago?"

I don't think you need "just right," and the "now" addition makes it a little clearer. But you could leave the "now" out and it would still be correct and a normal way to say that without making it more than one sentence.

Kooyeen · Answer

CalifJimNote that the subject and verb (man, is) still remain uninverted. You don't want to move "is" any farther to the left than is shown above.

I thought the verb "to be" could be used like in questions in those cases, but I just checked the "rule of thumb" that Swan mentions in his book, and I was wrong: he says question-order is only possible with what, which, and who (not with where or when).
However, I find that "rule" strange, for some reasons I find difficult to explain. Basically, what he seems to say is this (although the following examples are not the ones given in his book):

Do you know who's that tall man with a weird red hat?<-- Possible
Do you know where's that tall man with a weird red hat?<-- Not Possible

I find it weird, because such a rule would make little sense in my opinion. I suspect the real rule is different and more complex... something like this:

Do you know who's that tall man with a weird red hat? I've never seen him before.<-- Not Possible
Do you know who's the boss here? I need to talk to him.<-- Possible
Do you know where's that tall man with a weird red hat?<-- Not Possible

What do you say?

CalifJim · Answer

KooyeenWhat do you say?

KooyeenDo you know who's that tall man with a weird red hat? <-- Possible

I say "Not possible". It has to be ... know who that tall man is with ....

Kooyeenhe says question-order is only possible with what, which, and who (not with where or when).

He might expect us to infer "with linking verbs", but even then I am not fond of those sentences that use the direct question order in indirect questions. (where and when are always off to the side of the main clause. Neither can be a subject, for example. That's why Swan separates them off into another class.)

I'd like to know who is he?<< Argh. Not possible in my book.

KooyeenDo you know who's the boss here? I need to talk to him. <-- Possible

Yes. Sometimes it seems all right like that. You can work it out, more or less, by the form of the answer. Mr. Smith is the boss, so ... know who's the boss. But the canonical ... who the boss is ... is also possible, and is probably what I would say.
_______

The kind of thing you're referring to is called "semi-indirect". I admit it's used in casual conversation, but I don't have to like it!

But seriously, once you tell an ESL student that semi-indirect questions are possible, they often give up on learning how to do indirect questions the right way, and, not knowing exactly when semi-indirect questions are appropriate and when not, everything becomes "I don't know does he like salmon", which is pretty atrocious English. So my policy is "Don't encourage it".

CJ

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