"When have you had enough?"

Question

I need your opinions on usage of interrogatives in present perfect sentences:

A few Japanese "hardcore English grammar reference books" do prohibit use of "when, what time" together with "have done". But I feel quite awkward with this prohibition.

Let's say you know that your brother has been working on a college thesis for the last few weeks. But this morning you saw him with a huge smile all over. Again let's say he has not lost his mind but actually finished the project. In this situation, can you not ask him "When have you completed it?"

...now, I agree "When did you complete it?" sounds more natural and probably is the way actually said in real life. However, whether you cannot ever say "When have you completed it?" is what I want to know.

As I Google "When have you ...?", I get lots of hits such as "When have you had enough?" and "When have you experienced?", along with "When have you felt the presence of God?"

Or can you please come up a situation where its description starts with "When have I/you/they ...?" or "When has he/she ...?", so that I can explain to my ESL students?

As always, thanks for your inputs.

Mr Wordy · Accepted Answer

"When have you completed it?" in your context is unnatural to me. I can't imagine ever saying it. It would always be "When did you complete it?" (or, in real life more likely "When did you finish (it)?").

I would use "When have you... ?" to ask more generally about something that may or may not have happened one or more times in the past (rather than, as in your example, a specific identified instance of something happening). This might be to express scepticism ("When have you (ever) cared about anyone's feelings?"), surprise ("When have you been to Japan?", after someone mentioned an incident that they experienced in that country), or, without any additional "colour", simply to ask for information about the past occasions that someone had done something ("When have you felt the presence of ***?"). In the first two cases, but not the third, "did" would also work. If I used "did" in the third case then it would be referring to a specific instance, not asking generally.

The only time I can imagine saying "When have you had enough?" (as a sentence by itself) is to express surprise/indignation if someone was, say, eating a huge amount, or something of that nature. This is a colloquial/informal use.

Jazzmaster · Answer

Mr Wordy"When have you completed it?" in your context is unnatural to me. I can't imagine ever saying it. It would always be "When did you complete it?" (or, in real life more likely "When did you finish (it)?").
I would use "When have you... ?" to ask more generally about something that may or may not have happened one or more times in the past (rather than, as in your example, a specific identified instance of something happening). This might be to express scepticism ("When have you (ever) cared about anyone's feelings?"), surprise ("When have you been to Japan?", after someone mentioned an incident that they experienced in that country), or, without any additional "colour", simply to ask for information about the past occasions that someone had done something ("When have you felt the presence of ***?"). In the first two cases, but not the third, "did" would also work. If I used "did" in the third case then it would be referring to a specific instance, not asking generally.

The only time I can imagine saying "When have you had enough?" (as a sentence by itself) is to express surprise/indignation if someone was, say, eating a huge amount, or something of that nature. This is a colloquial/informal use.

Thanks for your reply, Mr. Wordy. You are not "wordy" at all, your explanation is very much to the point and concise. I am not kidding.

Hmm, "to ask more generally about something that may or may not have happened one or more times in the past" ... Come to think of it, this makes a lot of sense. I think you are absolutely correct. I was somehow trying to cling to "specific happening or occasion" to be able to use "when have you ...?".

Your example "When have you (ever) cared about anyone's feelings?" really nailed it for me. In this particular situation I even feel "when have you ...?" is more appropriate to use than "when did you ...?".

Even if these expressions were for colloquial/informal use only, as long as I know these are grammatically acceptable and can be said in certain situations, this question indeed was worth while asking.

Thanks for your input again, I learned a lot.

Mr Wordy · Answer

jazzmasterEven if these expressions were for colloquial/informal use only,

Actually, it was only the last, slightly sarcastic, use in "When have you had enough?" that I meant to label "colloquial/informal". The others are generally acceptable to me. Thinking about it some more, though, even that last one needn't be informal. For example, you could use it more formally in a piece about drinking in moderation, say. (Sometimes it's hard to immediately think of all the circumstances when an expression might be used!)

Jazzmaster · Answer

Mr Wordy
jazzmasterEven if these expressions were for colloquial/informal use only,
Actually, it was only the last, slightly sarcastic, use in "When have you had enough?" that I meant to label "colloquial/informal". The others are generally acceptable to me. Thinking about it some more, though, even that last one needn't be informal. For example, you could use it more formally in a piece about drinking in moderation, say. (Sometimes it's hard to immediately think of all the circumstances when an expression might be used!)

Do not worry, that is why I said "Even if", and I got you precisely.
"When have you had enough?" is just one of examples pulled from Google to prove "When have you ...?" sentences are actually used in real life although prohibited in some Japanese hardcore English grammar books.

Above all, your out-of-sight example "When have you ever cared for anyone else's feelings?" stands highly. That is all I could ever ask for.

Thanks again for your follow up.

CalifJim · Answer

jazzmasterA few Japanese "hardcore English grammar reference books" do prohibit use of "when, what time" together with "have done". But I feel quite awkward with this prohibition.

The present perfect cannot be used with specific (definite) times. This is the basic rule. When when? asks for a specific time it cannot be used with a present perfect.
*When (=At what time / On what day) have we gone shopping? must be When did we go shopping?
*When (=At what time / On what day) have you completed it? must be When did you complete it?
____

But when? has another meaning: during what period of time? In this case when? can be used with the present perfect. Also, the addition of ever often helps to suggest the durative meaning of when.
When (=During what periods in our lives) have we (ever) gone on a shopping spree? (Never. We're always broke!)

____
Another meaning of when? is in what situation(s)?
When have you had enough? falls into this category (I think it's roughly equivalent to How do you know when you have had enough? or What are the signs of having had enough?), as does When has this symptom occurred most intensely? (When the patient is stressed, When he is tired, When he overeats, ...)
____
I don't suppose I've covered all the different possibilities for what when? can mean, but perhaps I've given you a direction to start thinking in.
____
Unfortunately for the ESL student, it's a matter of speaker intent when the question is asked. Only the speaker knows which definition of when? he has in mind when he asks When?
If I want to know at what time Jane called on one occasion, expecting an answer like "7 o'clock", I can't ask When has she called?, but must ask When did she call?
But if I want to know in what situation(s) she has called, for example, when she has been bored and had no one to talk to, I can ask When has she called? True, we often add an adverb like usually or typically: When has she usually called? but it's not absolutely required. I don't doubt that with imagination the sentence can be successfully contextualized without the adverb.

This presents the apparent paradox to the student that When has she called? (and many other such questions) can be both incorrect and correct. They are correct when the speaker intends one thing; incorrect when the speaker intends another!
Good luck!

CJ

Jazzmaster · Answer

CalifJimBut when? has another meaning: during what period of time? In this case when? can be used with the present perfect. Also, the addition of ever often helps to suggest the durative meaning of when.
When (=During what periods in our lives) have we (ever) gone on a shopping spree? (Never. We're always broke!)
But if I want to know in what situation(s) she has called, for example, when she has been bored and had no one to talk to, I can ask When has she called? True, we often add an adverb like usually or typically: When has she usually called? but it's not absolutely required. I don't doubt that with imagination the sentence can be successfully contextualized without the adverb.

Thanks for coming back with another clear answer.

Yes, my question was concisely answered by your second presentation of "when" usage; during what period of time? I am glad to hear that "when ... ?" can be used with the present perfect.

Your example "When has she usually called?" served its purpose well. If a guy complain that his girl friend does not call him like she used to, I would ask this question. Because I am not interested in a specific date she called but frequency and/or timing of her call. Then I can clearly tell him, "you are being dumped, my friend, I am sorry."

Thanks for your input.

Clive · Answer

Hi,

May I ask if I am right in assuming that you are teaching a pretty advanced class?

Best wishes, Clive

Jazzmaster · Answer

CliveHi,
May I ask if I am right in assuming that you are teaching a pretty advanced class?

Best wishes, Clive

Clive, thanks for your post again.
I do not mind your asking this question at all. It should make you wonder indeed.

I do not believe it is matter of advanced or not. There are two kinds of questions ESL students would ask: one is "English questions" such as "How do you say when you are in a situation like ...", and the other is "grammatical questions" straight out of "hardcore English grammar books (HEGB)" written in their home languages. These are questions they have whenever they encounter actual sentences which "cannot be grammatically explained = prohibited use in the HEGB" in their minds. For instance, this student asked me why "when have you ...?" sentences are quite regularly used in real life while their grammar books prohibit that usage.

As you see, quite sometimes these "HEGB" questions get at points that an average native speaker cannot grammatically explain right away. Native speakers, however, do know whether the specific sentences are correct or not by heart and are using those expressions unconsciously if they are correct. It is just a matter of being able to explain why they are correct or wrong in a "language" ESL students can understand. To ensure my own understanding is correct and to see if anyone else has better explanations than I can ever think of, I turn to forums like this.

Thanks and I hope I answered your question.

Anonymous · Answer

Another and probably the general meaning of "When have" questions is "Since when."
We can actually use the phrase "When have you cared?" as short form of "Since when have you cared?" There might is a slight difference in nuance. But both are sarcastic and cynical.

"When have you had enough?"

Top answer

Get the Weekly English Kit 📬

Related Questions