When and Past perfect

Question

Hello,

I have a problem with a sentence I found in "Practical English Usage" on page 425.

1) When I had opened the windows, I sat down and had a cup of tea.
This is logical for me, as I opened the windows first, then I sat down and had a cup of tea.

2) When I opened the window, the cat jumped out.
This is illogical, at least for me as I don't get that. Could you explain me?
I would have written "When I had opened the window, the cat jumped out.", because
I had to open the window first, then the cat was able to jump out.
Or I would write the sentence like this:
When I had just opened the window, the cat jumped out.
That would mean for me I hardly opened the window the cat jumped out.

I hope you understand my problem I have.

Thanks
Robert

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi Robsee,

When I opened the window, the cat jumped out.
As a generalization, we don't use past perfect when the meaning is clear without it. It seems very clear to me in this example that the window was opened first, because cats don't like to jump through glass!

When I had just opened the window, the cat jumped out. When you add 'just', it changes the situation a bit. However, I think the most natural thing here would be to reword the sentence and say As soon as I opened the window, the cat jumped out. you add 'just', it changes the situation a little.

Best wishes, Clive

Mister Micawber · Answer

The 'problem', Robert, is that we don't really need past perfect if the sequence of past events is evident without it. Examples in textbooks are often indecisive or unclear, because it is very seldom that we actually need to grammatically show either (1) that A occurred before B in the past (logic usually takes care of that for us), or (2) that A was fully completed and out of the way before B occurred. (Those are the two main uses of the past perfect.)

Swan has made a noble effort to distinguish the uses, but in your #1 example, the past perfect is not absolutely necessary-- we naturally figure that the speaker completed opening the windows before his/her tea break. Nevertheless, the pp form is used here to stress the fact: The windows have been completely opened-- sigh!-- double-check-- is there more to do?-- no-- OK, tea time!

In the case of #2, the sequence of events is obvious and rapid: window cracked-- cat out and gone. No need at all for p.p. here.

Does this help your confusion, or compound it?

PS: Oh, hello Clive-- while I was rambling on, you were dealing with the enquiry quite concisely.

Robsee · Answer

As far as I understood you both have the same meaning that the examples of the book are not the best ones.

Would it sound better if I wrote it so:
I just opened the window, my cat jumped out.
(This is a sentence I would use if I had the possibility, or is that absolutely nonsense?)

It would be nice if you could give me a few sentences with "when and past perfect", so that I do understand the difference still better. I must admit that I haven't understood everything now, however, the explainations are great.

Thanks
Robert

Pieanne · Answer

I would say

"I opened the window, and my cat jumped out", or "I had just opened the window when my cat jumped out". The actions are rather simultaneous, if I know cats well?

As to the sentences with when + past perfect, it would be easier (to me at least) with "once". Maybe "when we had finished our meal, and everything had been put away, we moved into the garden and talked about our wedding".

The pace is more leasurely than with the simple past.

?

Wwwdotcom · Answer

robsee,

I think book examples are not always there to illustrate practical use, but rather to highlight grammatical rules.

I see three variables: a) the person opening the window b) the cat jumping out the window c) time both actions happened

Where do you place emphasis? It depends on what came before or after.

1 Let's say the cat was meowing incessantly, and you wanted to enjoy a cup of tea after work without the noise. Luckily, when you opened the window, the cat jumped out the window. (This situation puts emphasis on the cat before a certain event)

2 Let's say the cat jumped out the window and never returned. Friends are asking the person, "So, when did you last see Garfield?". Well, he slept for a while, ate some lasagna, and before I went to have a cup of tea, he jumped out the window when I opened it. I don't remember seeing him since that time. (Now the emphasis is on the cat after a certain event)

The last example puts emphasis on the time both actions happened.

3 It's true, logically, the cat will most likely not jump out the window unless it is open. However, what if the time of the 2 events are significantly different?

[ cat jumped out the window, open window, sat and drank tea ]

The window is half opened, half closed. The cat HAS BEEN sleeping and woken up by something outside. It then jumps out, you then open the window fully, and then sit down and have a cup of coffee hoping it will return shortly.

In the first example, you didn't want the cat inside. The third is different. It depends on what happened before or after.

Now, in regards to your last comment, "just" is read dependent on where it is in the sentence.

I opened the window just a little bit, and the cat jumped out. (window opened partially)
My cat loves the outdoors. Even if I just open the window, it will jump out. (window opened fully or partially

Pinenut · Answer

robsee,

After you had read all the replies to your posts, you should have realized that you had used a wrong conjuction (when) to illustrate the usage of the past perfect tense.

When I opened the windows.... This describes the exact moment in time.

the cat jumped out at the same moment. The two events took place at the same time. That is why you don't use different tenses.

After I had opened the windows, the cat jumped out.

In this instance, you are allowed to use the past perfect tense although you don't need to in order to stress the sequence of the events.

pine.

MrPedantic · Answer

PinenutWhen I opened the windows.... This describes the exact moment in time.

the cat jumped out at the same moment. The two events took place at the same time. That is why you don't use different tenses.

Interesting. I hear the sentence the same way.

To my mind, "When I opened the window, the cat jumped out" seems synonymous with "As I opened the window, the cat jumped out."

(And "When I had opened the window, the cat jumped out" seems synonymous with "After I opened the window, the cat jumped out.")

MrP

Mister Micawber · Answer

Well, perhaps not the exact moment-- there are liable to be shards and whiskers scattered about. But yes.

When I sat down, the chair broke.
When I had seated myself securely, the driver stepped on the gas.

Etc.

When and Past perfect

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