When

Question

Hi,Can we use 'when' in this manner? When he attacked, even the strongest would have yielded. (or, is 'if' better than when?) When he attacked, even the strongest yielded. 2) Similar to the above: X and Y were true in case A was true. (is this simple past, or must I treat it as conditional because of 'in case'?)Thanks,

Mr Wordy · Accepted Answer

AnonymousCan we use 'when' in this manner? When he attacked, even the strongest would have yielded.

This sentence doesn't seem quite right to me. Assuming you're talking about past events, these seem better:

"When he attacked, even the strongest yielded." (he did attack)

"If he had attacked, even the strongest would have yielded." (he didn't attack)

"If he attacked, even the strongest yielded." (less common form; he probably did attack, but the action of attacking seems more abstracted)

Anonymous2) Similar to the above: X and Y were true in case A was true. (is this simple past, or must I treat it as conditional because of 'in case'?)

I reserve "in case" for preventative actions (for example: "I'll take a map in case I get lost"). Here you could say "X and Y were true if A was true".

Anonymous · Answer

Mr Wordy"If he had attacked, even the strongest would have yielded." (he didn't attack)

Thank you, Mr. Wordy. Is 'would have' (or could have) always used in conditionals? For example: Since the man always got into trouble, it could only have pointed to one thing: he was a rebel. (or) Considering the smoke, the place would not have been anything but a kitchen. Based on his reputation as a miser, he might not have given anything.

I am assuming in all these sentences, would have etc. can be used even when there's no conditional?

TIA,

Mr Wordy · Answer

AnonymousThank you, Mr. Wordy. Is 'would have' (or could have) always used in conditionals?

Do you mean "does every conditional use 'would have' / 'could have'?" or do you mean "are conditionals the only context in which 'would have' / 'could have' are used"?

AnonymousSince the man always got into trouble, it could only have pointed to one thing: he was a rebel.

I don't see any need for "could have" in this sentence.

AnonymousConsidering the smoke, the place would not have been anything but a kitchen.

"could have" would be more usual here.

AnonymousBased on his reputation as a miser, he might not have given anything.

This feels awkward because "based on" is "dangling" (it doesn't modify anything in the sentence). "He might not have given anything" is OK in itself. It means that you aren't sure but are suggesting the possibility that he didn't give anything.

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks again, Mr. W.

Mr Wordy
AnonymousThank you, Mr. Wordy. Is 'would have' (or could have) always used in conditionals?
Do you mean "does every conditional use 'would have' / 'could have'?" or do you mean "are conditionals the only context in which 'would have' / 'could have' are used"?

The latter. I simply made up those example sentences in a hurry to explain this doubt; that's all.

Mr Wordy · Answer

Anonymous
Mr Wordy
AnonymousThank you, Mr. Wordy. Is 'would have' (or could have) always used in conditionals?
Do you mean "does every conditional use 'would have' / 'could have'?" or do you mean "are conditionals the only context in which 'would have' / 'could have' are used"?
The latter.

"could have + past participle" can be used in explicit and implicit conditionals, and also in non-conditional sentences:

Explicit conditional: "If I'd had a better education, I could have been a doctor."

Implicit conditional: "Someone could have easily stolen your bag." (= if a thief had been around, etc.)

Non-conditional: "It was the best thing that could have happened."

"would have + past participle" can be used in explicit and implicit conditionals:

Explicit conditional: "If you had run, you would have got here on time."

Implicit conditional: "I would have asked you, but you were busy." (= if you hadn't been busy...)

The only non-conditional use of "would have + past participle" that I can think of right now (or, at least, where the conditional sense is extremely faint) is when asserting that something was the case to the best of one's belief or expectation: "I'm sure I would have locked the door". There may be other uses that escape me at the moment.

There are also grammatically distinct uses of "could have" and "would have" as the past tense of "can have" and "will have" respectively. For example: "When I was young, I could have jam whenever I wanted", "I told him he would have to leave".

Anonymous · Answer

Thank you very much for the detailed response, Mr. Wordy. I really do appreciate it.

I am assuming should have/must have /might have can also be used in non-conditional sentences: It was no surprise that capitalism should have destroyed so many lives. I knew it must have been Mary. I knew it might have been Mary.

But when we use it for would have, we get: I knew it would have been wonderful. This isn't conditional, is it? The same goes for could have as well.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Mr Wordy · Answer

AnonymousI am assuming should have/must have /might have can also be used in non-conditional sentences: It was no surprise that capitalism should have destroyed so many lives. I knew it must have been Mary. I knew it might have been Mary.

Yes, these uses are all possible.

AnonymousBut when we use it for would have, we get: I knew it would have been wonderful. This isn't conditional, is it?

This is another example of what I called an implicit conditional. In full, we probably mean something like " I knew it would have been wonderful if I had gone / if it had happened / etc.", but we just don't bother to state the "if..." part.

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks again, Mr. W. To conclude, except would have, others can be used in non-conditional.

Mr Wordy · Answer

AnonymousThanks again, Mr. W. To conclude, except would have, others can be used in non-conditional.

Though I did give an example of "would have (+ pp)" in which the conditional sense, if there is one, is hard to precisely identify: "I'm sure I would have locked the door", said to assert one's belief that one did lock the door.

Another example I thought of later is "I would have been there for about an hour", where "would have" is used to soften the sentence and introduce a sense of doubt or probability, but without any implied conditional sense. (Of course, the same sentence could be used as an implied conditional: "I would have been there for about an hour ... if I hadn't managed to excuse myself, etc.")

"would" is quite a complicated word in English!

When

Top answer

Get the Weekly English Kit 📬

Related Questions