What's the scope of "backshifting"?

Question

The rule of the sequence of tenses says that if the main clause is in the past tense, the subordinate clause should be in the past tense too. But what is the scope of this rule? I mean, if we have a complex sentece with more than one verb, then should this rule apply to only the first verb in the sentence or to all off them. Example:
What was the plan and why didn't you accept it?
In reported speech, should it be:
He asked me what the plan had been and why I hadn't accepted it.

This sentence consists of two questions, the first introduce by "what" and the secend by "why" and I wonder if the second one should be backshifted or left unchanged so that the reported question would go like this:

He asked me what the plan had been and why I didn't accept it.

There may be other sentences with more verbs and even more complex (none comes to my mind now) and I am not sure whether all of the verbs should be backshifted or only some of them.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

"Kermit" (Email Removed) wrote on 19 Nov 2003:
[nq:1]The rule of the sequence of tenses says that if the main clause is in the past tense, the subordinate ... verb in the sentence or to all off them. Example: What was the plan and why didn't you accept it?[/nq]
This is not a complex sentence but a compound sentence, ie one with two independent clauses and no subordinate clause, so the backshift rule that applies to subordinate clauses does not apply to this sentence.
[nq:1]In reported speech, should it be: He asked me what the plan had been and why I hadn't accepted it.[/nq]
Yes. No. Maybe. "He asked me what the plan was and why I hadn't accepted it" is also possible. It depends on whether the plan is still actively a plan or whether it was scrapped when "I" did not accept it.
[nq:1]This sentence consists of two questions, the first introduce by "what" and the secend by "why" and I wonder if ... reported question would go like this: He asked me what the plan had been and why I didn't accept it.[/nq]
You backshift if the refusal has already happened and there's no longer a chance to accept it. If it's still possible to accept it, then it could be "He asked me what the plan was and why I {didn't/don't/wouldn't/won't} accept it".
[nq:1]There may be other sentences with more verbs and even more complex (none comes to my mind now) and I am not sure whether all of the verbs should be backshifted or only some of them.[/nq]
The backshifting rule allows for exceptions, but you would have to give examples of comlex rather than compound sentences to see how it works.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The backshifting rule allows for exceptions, but you would have to give examples of comlex rather than compound sentences to see how it works.[/nq]
1. You are not allowed to enter here unless you have a pass which you canget in room no 5 which is on the 2nd floor.
The warden said that I was not allowed to enter there unless I had a pass which I could get in room no 5 which was on the 2nd floor.
2. You may not believe me when you first read this , but all ants who livein New Jersey are named "Fred".
She told him that he might not believe her when he first read this, but all ants who lived in New Jersey were named "Fred".
3. When he handed in his homework, he forgot to give the teacher the lastpage.
I told her that when he had handed in his homework, he had forgotten to give the teacher the last page.
Are these sentences correctly reported?
I have a feeling that there is something wrong with each of them. The last verb of the 1st sentence could probably remain unchanged because the room was on the 2nd floor at the time of speaking and is probably still there now. But can the verb be left unchanged if the sentence is to comply with the rules?
Can the 2nd/3rd sentences be reported like that or should some linking expressions be introduced between the two clauses?

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The rule of the sequence of tenses says that if the main clause is in the past tense, the subordinate ... In reported speech, should it be: He asked me what the plan had been and why I hadn't accepted it.[/nq]
This is a purely rhetorical and historical question, since in current colloquial English reported speech is anathema. I'm sorry, I'll say that again: In current colloquial English reported speech is like "Eeeugh!"
And he's like, "What plan?" And I'm like, "Just a plan. Sucks though." And he's like, "Uh, WHYY?" And I'm like . . . .

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The backshifting rule allows for exceptions . . . .[/nq]
A few:
. If the secondary action is, as Curme puts it, "habitual, customary, characteristic, or . . . universally true", we use the present for the secondary proposition:
He asked the guard what time the train usually leaves.

He was unaware that nettles sting.
Columbus demonstrated that the world is round.
. If the secondary statement is a generality true in the present as well as the past, or holds for the past life of the speaker up through the present, we use the present perfect:
He told them that honesty has always been the best policy.
The old man told me he has not missed a playoff game yet.

That tense also is used after a past indicative when the principal proposition is closely related to the present:

I learned this morning that they have begun work on the new bridge.
. When the past activity is still continuing, we use the present tense in the secondary proposition:
He told me this morning that they are still at work on the bridge.
. And we use the future when the past proposition refers to a time still "vividly felt" as future at the moment:

He told me this morning that he is going (will go) with us tomorrow.
There are also sequence-of-tenses complexities in the subjunctive mood.

Cordially,
Eric Walker
My opinions on English are available at
http://owlcroft.com/english/

Usenet · Answer

"Kermit" (Email Removed) wrote on 20 Nov 2003:
[nq:2]The backshifting rule allows for exceptions, but you would have to give examples of comlex rather than compound sentences to see how it works.[/nq]
[nq:1]1. You are not allowed to enter here unless you have a pass which you can get in room no ... there unless I had a pass which I could get in room no 5 which was on the 2nd floor.[/nq]
Yes, this is correctly reported, but there is a variant which allows for "which *is* on the 2nd floor". I don't think the present-tense variant is always appropriate for this type of sentence, though; it's different from "The teacher told the class that the moon {revolves/revolved} around the Earth".
[nq:1]2. You may not believe me when you first read this , but all ants who live in New Jersey ... might not believe her when he first read this, but all ants who lived in New Jersey were named "Fred".[/nq]
I think I would change the wording slightly, probably to "She told him that he might not believe her when he first read her {claim/statement} that all ants who lived in New Jersey {were/are} named 'Fred'."
[nq:1]3. When he handed in his homework, he forgot to give the teacher the last page. I told her that when he had handed in his homework, he had forgotten to give the teacher the last page.[/nq]
I wouldn't backshift "handed in" to "had handed in" or "forgot" to "had forgotten": the forgetting occurred at the time of the handing in of the homework, so both verbs can be in the same tense, and because both are already in the past tense, neither needs to be backshifted from simple past to past perfect. In fact, backshifting to the past perfect here seems wrong to me.

What's the scope of "backshifting"?

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