What type of phrase is this?

Question

Hi,'The average illegal patient is 25 years old giving birth to her second anchor baby.'Is 'giving birth to her second anchor baby' a present particple phrase?Secondly, to be grammatically correct, does it need to have a comma separating it from the sentence?'The average illegal patient is 25 years old, giving birth to her second anchor baby.'Thirdly, Is it even better to write it like this as I understood that the phrase should generally come straight after the noun (patient)?'The average illegal patient, giving birth to her second anchor baby, is 25 years oldFinally, is it best written like this?'The average illegal patient is 25 years old AND IS giving birth to her second anchor baby.'Finally, 'IS 25 years old' is this an appositive? It could also be separated from the noun by commas as it is non essential information, correct?Thanks for your help

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

Eddie88Is 'giving birth to her second anchor baby' a present particple phrase?

Yes.

Eddie88Secondly, to be grammatically correct, does it need to have a comma separating it from the sentence?

No. Grammatical correctness is independent of punctuation. No amount of punctuation can make an ungrammatical sentence grammatical, and vice versa.

Eddie88Is it even better to write it like this ... 'The average illegal patient, giving birth to her second anchor baby, is 25 years old

Not necessarily. This is a question of style. Remove the commas, though, because the meaning is 'restrictive'.

Eddie88is it best written like this? The average illegal patient is 25 years old AND IS giving birth to her second anchor baby.'

No. Absolutely not. The revision takes a subordinate idea and makes it a coordinate idea.

Eddie88Finally, 'IS 25 years old' is this an appositive?

No. It's a predicate. It consists of a linking verb and an adjective.
CJ

Eddie88 · Answer

Cool, thanks.

In regards to your answer, No amount of punctuation can make an ungrammatical sentence grammatical, and vice versa, I think my question is the same question I have asked you in the past. Because 'giving' shows no tense (verbal/non finite verb) it just seems slightly strange for it to flow straight on from the preceeding text- is this right.

And I now have read over appositives, and I now clearly see that it is not an appositive- thanks for the correction.

Thanks a heap for your help again!

Eddie88 · Answer

Cool, thanks.

Just one question.

In regards to your answer, No amount of punctuation can make an ungrammatical sentence grammatical, and vice versa, I think my question is the same question I have asked you in the past. Because 'giving' shows no tense (verbal/non finite verb) it just seems slightly strange for it to flow straight on from the preceeding text- is this right?

And I now have read over appositives, and I now clearly see that it is not an appositive- thanks for the correction.

Thanks a heap for your help again!

Avangi · Answer

Eddie88Hi,

'The average illegal patient is 25 years old giving birth to her second anchor baby.'

Is 'giving birth to her second anchor baby' a present particple phrase? Yes.

Secondly, to be grammatically correct, does it need to have a comma separating it from the sentence? Not necessarily. It's not a very good sentence, and suffers from some ambiguity. Sometiimes the author has a choice, depending on whether or not he wants the phrase to be "essential" to the meaning. If he wants it to be essential, no comma. Does he intend these to be two separate statistics, or one? So it's easy to calculate the average age. What they're in for is a different process. You'd set up categories that seem to fit, and see which category has the most. That might be typical, but I don't think it can properly be called average.

'The average illegal patient is 25 years old, giving birth to her second anchor baby.' It's going to be best with the coma, since the logic is so confusing.

Thirdly, Is it even better to write it like this as I understood that the phrase should generally come straight after the noun (patient)?

'The average illegal patient, giving birth to her second anchor baby, is 25 years old This one doesn't work. It doesn't convey the same meaning.

Finally, is it best written like this?

'The average illegal patient is 25 years old AND IS giving birth to her second anchor baby.' This is the best. (We don't actually know the average age of these women.)

Finally, 'IS 25 years old' is this an appositive? It could also be separated from the noun by commas as it is non essential information, correct? It's not an appositive. It's the main sentence. You simply have a compound predicate in which you repeat the same verb. It's like saying "I am old, and am fat." If you were to repeat the subject also, you'd have a compound sentence. "I am old, and I am fat." "The average illegal patient is 25 years old, and the average illegal patient is giving birth to her second anchor baby." The subject of both clauses is "The average illegal patient," but in your example you only need it once, because it serves both predicates.

Sorry I got out of the loop here. Had to field an emergency call from my daughter who was hoplessly lost, and Google Maps was misbehaving.

After just reading CJ's post, I see we disagree significantly on your final revision. My feeling was that in the author's original, there was nothing to indicate that one statistic was more significant than the other. Prior context may make it clear. The thing I liked about your final revision was that it removed the ambiguity, making them two different statistics, which I believe they are.
Ironically, my objection to your penultimate revision was that it reduced the importance of the age statistic below its position in the original.

Eddie88 · Answer

Hi, cool thanks for your quick replies!

I would just like to know this, too:

'The average illegal patient is 25 years old giving birth to her second anchor baby.'

Giving here is a verbal, correct?

Also known as a non finite verb, correct?

And 'giving' in this sentence therefore shows no tense, correct?

And this is why it kind of sounds awkward not having a comma between old and giving, correct? (CJ, I think this is a question you have answered for me before...)

CalifJim · Answer

Eddie88Because 'giving' shows no tense (verbal/non finite verb) it just seems slightly strange for it to flow straight on from the preceeding text- is this right?

No. I went back and added a comment in my first post above about this. The 'giving' phrase is restrictive, so you don't want commas.
It's the patient who is giving birth, not just any patient who, by coincidence, happens to be giving birth.
Let it 'flow straight on'!!!

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

Eddie88Giving here is a verbal, correct?

I believe that term is sometimes used.

Eddie88Also known as a non finite verb, correct?

We need to be a little more exact. It is a non-finite form of a verb. (If we say non-finite verb, it makes it sound as if some verbs are finite and some are non-finite. This is not true. All verbs have both finite forms and non-finite forms.)

Eddie88shows no tense, correct?

Correct. Finite means, in effect, "tensed". Non-finite means, in effect, "non-tensed".

Eddie88awkward not having a comma

See one of my previous posts. I think it may seem awkward to you, but you'll have to get used to it, because not having a comma is fine.

CJ

Eddie88 · Answer

Hi, sorry but I can't seem to see your additional post anywhere...

But I think I understand anyway. I just remember you saying in the past that because it is non finite (non-tensed as you said) it sounds slightly awkward. I will look out for these participle phrases with the verbal and will remember that they can flow- a comma is only needed when the phase is non essential to the main clause's idea

.

Also, could you please answer another post of mine. I have an answer but she said she was uncertain about her answer. I'd love for you to clear it up. The post is called sentence question please help.

Thanks again.

Khoff · Answer

I have nothing to contribute to the grammar discussion, but the phrase "illegal patient" bothers me.   I realize that people use to term "illegal" as a quick way to refer to a person who is in the country illegally, or without proper documentation, but I don't like it --   in my mind, an action can be illegal, but not a person.  However, even if you accept the current use of "illegal" as applied to people, "illegal patient" sounds as if the person is forbidden by law from being a patient.  Is that what you mean to say?

Avangi · Answer

khoff a quick way to refer to a person who is in the country illegally, or without proper documentation

If we are to prohibit the term "illegal" on humanitarian grounds, or because of common decency or political correctness; then surely we must prohibit "anchor baby," which to my mind is a far more offensive and degrading term. While clearly nothing illegal is being done, the implied accusation cuts far deeper.

(Doesn't this belong in another forum?)

- A.

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