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JungKim Posted 12 years ago
Grammar
What exactly is an unreal situation?
From Practical English Usage by Swan (3rd Ed., 278.5):
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278 indirect speech (5): advanced points
5 conditionals
After past reporting verbs, sentences with if and would are usually unchanged.
DIRECT: It would be best if we started early.
INDIRECT: He said it would be best if they started early.
However, if-sentences that refer to 'unreal' situations can change as follows.
DIRECT: If I had any money I'd buy you a drink.
INDIRECT: She said if she had had any money she would have bought me a drink. (OR She said if shehad any money she would buy...)
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Swan implies that the first example sentence (It would be best if we started early.) does not refer to an "unreal" situation.
I think that that sentence is some sort of recommendation as to a present or future event, and that you can only recommend a course of action that has yet to be "realized". Specifically, the action of us starting early has not been realized at the time of speaking.
Then, how come the sentence does not refer to an unreal situation?
-----------------------
278 indirect speech (5): advanced points
5 conditionals
After past reporting verbs, sentences with if and would are usually unchanged.
DIRECT: It would be best if we started early.
INDIRECT: He said it would be best if they started early.
However, if-sentences that refer to 'unreal' situations can change as follows.
DIRECT: If I had any money I'd buy you a drink.
INDIRECT: She said if she had had any money she would have bought me a drink. (OR She said if shehad any money she would buy...)
-----------------------
Swan implies that the first example sentence (It would be best if we started early.) does not refer to an "unreal" situation.
I think that that sentence is some sort of recommendation as to a present or future event, and that you can only recommend a course of action that has yet to be "realized". Specifically, the action of us starting early has not been realized at the time of speaking.
Then, how come the sentence does not refer to an unreal situation?
Top answer
) does not refer to an "unreal" situation. It seems so, and I can't think why Mr. Swan is taking this approach.
- ) does not refer to an "unreal" situation.
- It seems so, and I can't think why Mr.
- Swan is taking this approach.
- I think he is conceptualizing this in a way that is not at all helpful.
- It seems to me that it's not a matter of "real" vs "unreal", but of "unconditional" and "conditional".
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32 Answers
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JungKimSwan implies that the first example sentence (It would be best if we started early.) does not refer to an "unreal" situation.It seems so, and I can't think why Mr. Swan is taking this approach. I think he is conceptualizing this in a way that is not at all helpful. It seems to me that it's not a matter of "real" vs "unreal", but of "unconditional" an
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CalifJimEdit: I could have sworn there was at least one other reply on this thread when I started writing mine, maybe more. I can't find any other replies now. What happened?Actually, I was going to read another answer but I couldn't. It seems to have been deleted.
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JungKimActually, I was going to read another answer but I couldn't. It seems to have been deleted.I deleted my answer because I became unsure about the definitions being used.
However, it makes sense to me if "unreal" means "contrary to fact". "If I had any money" is contrary to fact; "If we started early" is not.
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GPYI deleted my answer because I became unsure about the definitions being used.Thanks for answering and sharing your thoughts, GPY.
One of the reasons I posted this thread in the first place was because I too was unsure about the definition of 'unreal'. Last time I checked, 'unreal' means 'imaginary', which could include -- but is not limited to -- 'cont
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JungKimI'm not entirely sure that "if I had any money..." is contrary to fact.I'm not either. According to the grammar books, as far as I know, the only examples where 'if' is followed by a proposition that is false (contrary to fact) are those with the pattern if + past perfect.
If you had started early implies that you didn't start (
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JungKimWhat exactly is an unreal situation?To get back to your original question, most of the literature on the subject says, in effect, that "unreal" is like "imagined" or "envisioned", so it's usually associated with the idea of a hypothesis, a guess. Another way to look at it is that "unreal" is "not real", and the usual examples of "real" involve relatio
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CalifJimAccording to the grammar books, as far as I know, the only examples where 'if' is followed by a proposition that is false (contrary to fact) are those with the pattern if + past perfect.Could you name some grammar books that say this?
Practical English Usage, for one, says that 'if + past' can refer to an unreal situation, as quoted in the OP.
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JungKimCould you name some grammar books that say this?No, not by names. And they won't say that literally. I've read so many grammar books in my life I wouldn't know which ones said what. But that doesn't matter because you can go on-line and look up this information yourself. Look under "conditionals". Many websites cover this information, and if they
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JungKimBut I'm not entirely sure that "if I had any money..." is contrary to fact.Apologies for not having read all of the posts above, but I feel very confident that, in the example given, "if I had any money" is intended to be counter-factual. If I had any money I'd buy you a drink, but I don't have any money, so I won't/can't buy you a drink.
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GPYApologies for not having read all of the posts above, but I feel very confident that, in the example given, "if I had any money" is intended to be counter-factual. If I had any money I'd buy you a drink, but I don't have any money, so I won't/can't buy you a drink.GPY, thanks for following up on this.
Since you haven't read all the posts, I will simpl
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