What about this "theme" thing?

Question

I just read a screenplay writing book "Save The Cat" by Blake Snyder.

It was fun to read and might have even taught me something. Except I just don't get the theme thing. Blake thinks you need one makes sense and he also thinks you need to make it obvious alright and it needs to right there on page five of your screenplay.

He lost me there.
How obvious is the "theme" of a movie? I've started asking people what the theme of certain movies are and if they don't just shrug their shoulders and if they actually give an answer it doesn't usually match the answer someone else gave me.
I can accept the fact that I'm clueless, but I'd like to grasp this. As an example: What was the theme of "Iron Man"? And was it obviously stated at the five-minute mark?
(Any other movies you want to mention are OK with me.)

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I just read a screenplay writing book "Save The Cat" by Blake Snyder. It was fun to read and might have even taught me something. Except I just don't get the theme thing. Blake thinks you need one makes sense and he also thinks you need to make it obvious alright and it needs to right there on page five of your screenplay. He lost me there. How obvious is the "theme" of a movie? I've started asking people what the theme of certain movies are and if they don't just shrug their shoulders and if they actually give an answer it doesn't usually match the answer someone else gave me. I can accept the fact that I'm clueless, but I'd like to grasp this. As an example: What was the theme of "Iron Man"? And was it obviously stated at the five-minute mark?[/nq]
Oddly enough, I'm in the middle of watching Iron Man right now. Literally. Got in on DVD from NetFlix this afternoon, was watching it, stopped it to answer the door. The UPS man (grrr) delivering my home theatre system, back from being repaired. I'll hook it all up after the debate. Just finished lunch.
So, I haven't seen the end of it, and there's the fact that it's just a comic book origins story, but so far my reaction is that the theme of Iron Man is just that old saw, 'with great power comes great responsibility.' Five minutes in? It's pretty clear by then that Tony Stark is very, very powerful and also very irresponsible, and that that combination is his problem (as in, the one he has to overcome over the course of the story).
One man's half-baked opinion, as always.

Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary
Steven

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I just read a screenplay writing book "Save The Cat" by Blake Snyder. It was fun to read and might have even taught me something. Except I just don't get the theme thing. Blake thinks you need one makes sense and he also thinks you need to make it obvious alright and it needs to right there on page five of your screenplay. He lost me there. How obvious is the "theme" of a movie? I've started asking people what the theme of certain movies are and if they don't just shrug their shoulders and if they actually give an answer it doesn't usually match the answer someone else gave me. I can accept the fact that I'm clueless, but I'd like to grasp this. As an example: What was the theme of "Iron Man"? And was it obviously stated at the five-minute mark? (Any other movies you want to mention are OK with me.)[/nq]
After re-reading the section, Blake Snyder writes that the theme should be stated somewhere in the first five pages and that *he* always puts it on page 5.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I just read a screenplay writing book "Save The Cat" ... to read and might have even taught me something. [/nq]
[nq:1]Oddly enough, I'm in the middle of watching Iron Man right now. Literally. Got in on DVD from NetFlix this afternoon, was watching it, stopped it to answer the door. The UPS man (grrr) delivering my home theatre system, back from being repaired. I'll hook it all up after the debate. Just finished lunch. So, I haven't seen the end of it, and there's the fact that it's just a comic book origins story, but so far my reaction is that the theme of Iron Man is just that old saw, 'with great power comes great responsibility.' Five minutes in? It's pretty clear by then that Tony Stark is very, very powerful and also very irresponsible, and that that combination is his problem (as in, the one he has to overcome over the course of the story). One man's half-baked opinion, as always.[/nq]
Not half-baked. It makes a lot more sense than what I was coming up with. I had the idea that themes were supposed to be one word things like, redemption, or something.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]So, I haven't seen the end of it, and there's the fact that it's just a comic book origins story, but so far my reaction is that the theme of Iron Man is just that old saw, 'with great power comes great responsibility.' Five minutes in? It's pretty clear by then that Tony Stark is very, very powerful and also very irresponsible, and that that combination is his problem (as in, the one he has to overcome over the course of the story).[/nq]
Thanks Steven.
I'd say you nailed it. "With great power comes great responsibility" goes all the way through it.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I just read a screenplay writing book "Save The Cat" by Blake Snyder. It was fun to read and might have even taught me something. Except I just don't get the theme thing. Blake thinks you need one makes sense and he also thinks you need to make it obvious alright and it needs to right there on page five of your screenplay. He lost me there. How obvious is the "theme" of a movie? I've started asking people what the theme of certain movies are and if they don't just shrug their shoulders and if they actually give an answer it doesn't usually match the answer someone else gave me. I can accept the fact that I'm clueless, but I'd like to grasp this. As an example: What was the theme of "Iron Man"? And was it obviously stated at the five-minute mark? (Any other movies you want to mention are OK with me.)[/nq]
Sounds like Blake has massively oversimplified three different concepts:
premise this is a technical term. It's the thing your screenplay's resolution proves is true about the world (the world being considered in the screenplay). The painfully overquoted example is Casablanca, which proves that no (honorable) man is (can remain) an island. I couldn't name the premise of 2001 without taking acid again, and I just don't have enough brain juice left for that, sorry. But if you name the well-written film, I will take a shot at this it's fun once you get the hang of it.
This is a useful tool when you get comments on your screenplay that the theme or action is "muddled." It's likely your overarching dramatic premise is one thing, but the resolution of your film fails to prove it, or your ending is fine, but you wander away from the premise too far in the rest of the screenplay. The premise may not be clear until the end; movies that leave you feeling sucker-punched (in the good way) are often of this type.
dramatic question related to (if your story is good) the premise, but different: what's at risk/at stake/the dramatic question that is answered by the actions of your protagonist? For a film like Tootsie, it might be "can a sexist walk a mile in a woman's shoes and stay a sexist" (if you don't believe me, watch his first scene with Teri Garr again)....The dramatic question of Casablanca, for example, is NOT "will rick get on the plane", if you think it is, you tend to be dissatisfied by the ending. The dramatic question is "will Rick stop withdrawing from the world of moral choices," which is a much more interesting question.
theme this is the squishiest of all. Again, related to premise and dramatic question, but not the same. A much broader statement than the premise, something like "war is ****" would apply (I think!) to MASH and Catch-22 equally, or maybe it's just war is insane, which would also include Dr. Strangelove. Some American films can have more than one theme, I think. It shouldn't be in the dialog (i.e. the opposite of subtext when you put the frikkin theme in the frikkin dialog), but it should ooze from your story.
To use Iron Man as an example since Steve already hit it:

premise: Good can triumph over evil (premise in way too many comic book movies. I think this is why Iron Man's ending wasn't as strong as the rest of it. Either that or the *** "comic book" dialog at the end).
dramatic question Can a profligate/spoiled american mend his ways and do actual good (or maybe can he atone for his misdeeds). That's why he has to defeat whats-his-**** instead of just retiring as a monk. The specific choices he made created the situation, and we won't be satisfied until we know the answer. In real life, it hardly ever happens, which lends power to the question!)...
theme now this is interesting. The theme for me revolved around recovery/rebirth/atonement, something in that neighborhood. Compare and contrast to latest Batman movie's theme, which seemed to be 'you can't win, but you can't stop fighting' or some **** muddled thing. I would expect the writers and directors involved, being used to more complex material, to have tried to put too much into the movie thematically than it could hold.
I picked up this vocabulary at UCLA because people do use premise and theme differently, and very few understand the relationship between them and the structure of a movie story.
Not sure that helps, after all. Sorry!
Mysti

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I just read a screenplay writing book "Save The Cat" ... to read and might have even taught me something. [/nq]
[nq:1]Sounds like Blake has massively oversimplified three different concepts: premise this is a technical term. It's the thing your ... your ending is fine, but you wander away from the premise too far in the rest of the screenplay. [/nq]
Thanks Mysti,
I've got a lot to chew on.

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@reader1.panix.com:
[nq:1]I just read a screenplay writing book "Save The Cat" by Blake Snyder. It was fun to read and might ... And was it obviously stated at the five-minute mark? (Any other movies you want to mention are OK with me.)[/nq]
To me, it's story first, then theme. That is, you spin your tale, making it as good a story as possible. Then, you figure out what the theme is, and find ways of revealing it.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]@reader1.panix.com:[/nq]
[nq:2]I just read a screenplay writing book "Save The Cat" ... to read and might have even taught me something. [/nq]
[nq:1]To me, it's story first, then theme. That is, you spin your tale, making it as good a story as possible. Then, you figure out what the theme is, and find ways of revealing it.[/nq]
Thanks Jackson,
That's they way it's beginning to look to me. Now that I'm a better understanding, I started looking at my screenplays and other stories and they all have a theme. I just need to polish it up.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]premise this is a technical term. It's the thing your screenplay's resolution proves is true about the world (the ... you name the well-written film, I will take a shot at this it's fun once you get the hang of it.[/nq]
I take it that the mise comes from the same root as commiserate, and the pre means before. So a premise would be going into the story with a sympathetic assumption. The premise of Rumor Has It is that The Graduate was based on real life events. The theme would be whether the passionate fling or a steadfast caring was the truer love.

The premise for 2001 is that the monolith appears as a sentinel to the dawn of every epoch of human technology. It appears. Man discovers fire, this gives him an advatage over others, and so on. The theme would probably be more along the line that the old technology must be left behind in order to enter the new age. That's why it was thematically important to shut down a malfunctioning HAL 9000 and leave the ship.
[nq:1]I picked up this vocabulary at UCLA because people do use premise and theme differently, and very few understand the relationship between them and the structure of a movie story. Not sure that helps, after all. Sorry![/nq]
The terms get muddled and thrown around, but the important thing is that your story is not so muddled that someone can't organize the content with coherence. You can outline Casablanca or any other good script any way you'd like it's perfection is in its structure.

Usenet · Answer

My thing on theme (I have about a half dozen tips on it and a class written up that I wanted to teach this year at expo... but they want me to do all of the same classes I did last year)...

The theme is the point of the story.
It could be a theory you are exploring, too (that is, you don't have to come to a conclusion, though I find it hard not to). And it's often tied to character arc, because your lead is kind of the test subject in your experiment.
Why are you telling this story?
- Bill

What about this "theme" thing?

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