We spotted a giant of a man and of a woman.

Question

1. We spotted a giant of a man and of a woman.

2. We announced the release of a CD and of a record.

It looks like #3 and #4 have the same structure. But my book says #3 is not OK because it is impossible to coordinate the of-strings. Even though it says like that, I don't understand.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

Where are numbers 3 and 4?

As for #1 and #2, both sound equally awkward to me, and the semantic structure certainly seems the same.

Dave_anon · Answer

Hi

I think the point that your book is making is about ellipsis. Where words repeat themselves in a noun-preposition-noun form then you can usually omit some of them..

- He fought with great courage; he fought with great strength

- He fought with great courage and with great strength

- He fought with great courage and strength

- We start with a cup of water; and with a cup of flour

- We start with a cup of water and of flour

- We announced the release of a CD; also the release of a record

- We announced the release of a CD and of a record

- We announced the release of a CD and record

All of the above are fine, but ellipsis does not work with noun-preposition-noun idioms..

[x] - We spotted a giant of a man and of a woman

This doesn't work because "giant of a man" is idiomatic. You cannot break the idiom in the same way that you can with ordinary noun phrases. Here's another..

- I'm out of pocket

[= I've lost money on this]

- I'm out of here

[= I'm leaving this place]

[x] - I'm out of here and pocket

Again, this doesn't work as an ellipsis because the meanings are too far apart - they are idiomatic

The general rule is that you can use ellipsis only if the words have the same meaning and function - non-idomatically - within the two parts of the sentence

Having said that, there is an English figure of speech called syllepsis where you deliberately break the rule..

Suppose my friend has bought a bad piece of furniture and had an argument with his partner about it..

- He sat uncomfortably on the sofa and with his wife

[= he is uncomfortable on the sofa and he is uncomfortable in his relationship with his wife]

But, in general, you should not use ellipsis with an idiom

Hope that helps, Dave

Moon7296 · Answer

Ah.. my bad.. sorry.

Actually, there is no #3 and #4 but only #1 and #2.

My book(English Syntax And Argumentation -Bas Aarts) says in #1 it is impossible to coordinate the of-strings, whereas this poses no problems in #2. This again suggests that the PPs(prepositional phrases) are constituents in #2, but not in #1.

Moon7296 · Answer

Ah.. yeah. your explanation is far easier than the point introduced in my book. (The point in that part is complement, but I don't understand with the book's rationale.)

Let me introduce it a little.

++

(33) *[Of a man], he was a giant -. (* means ungrammaticality.)

(34) The company didn't announce the release of the record, but [of the CD] they did (announce the release -).

Moving the of-string to the left results in ungrammaticality in (33), but not in (34). Again, as in (21) and (22), we notice a difference between the of-string in (33) and the undisputed Complement of the CD in (34) (cf. They released the CD). The difference behaviour of the two of-strings is likely to be due to the fact that in (33) of a man is not a constituent.

What about rightward movement?

(i) A giant of a man was arrested.

(ii) The release of a CD by the Pope was announced.

The results are as follows:

(35) *A giant - was arrested [of a man].

(36) The release - was announced [of a CD by the Pope].

Again, the string introduced by of in (35) behaves differently from that in (36). As we have seen, in (36) the of-string is without doubt a Complement, but not in (35).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ p.272~3

Then, my example(coordinate the of-strings) comes next..

It says, '~without doubt a Complement' but I don't understand it even if it is says '~without doubt'!

Ah... after studying it for minutes.. I got a glimse of this point.. I underlined 'They released the CD' above. I think this is the key to this constituent thing. We don't say They released. That why 'of a CD and of a record' should be OK in We announced the release of a CD and of a record.

Dave_anon · Answer

Hi

I wonder if the book means this..

In English, the most common use for "of" is constitutve. ".. x..of ...y.." will usually mean..

- x belongs to y

- x is part of y

- x has an emotional link with y

- x contains y

- He is the son of the King

- Here is a piece of cake

- He is a supporter of the England Team

- He is a member of the Government

- It was a bucket of water

- He is a lover of Mozart

It is not easy to say exactly what "constitutive" means but I would say that all of the above are examples

There is another use of ".. x.. of ..y .." and it is used to describe a simile: it is saying that y is like x. You could say it is complementary (and I think this is what your textbook means)..

- He was like a lion

- He was a lion of a man

- She was as timid as a mouse

- She was a mouse of a woman

- He was as big as a giant

- He was a giant of a man

And, as mentioned before, there are idioms that are related..

- You've made a complete dog's breakfast of that

[= You've made a mess of it]

- Don't make a monkey of me

[= Don't try to make me look like a monkey]

- That's a **** of a job you've taken on there

Where the "of" is constituent, then you can use the rules in the textbook to move the phrase around. (I expect the book can give you better details than I can)..

- He is the son of whom?

- Of the King!

- Would you like a piece of cake? Or of cheese?

- Is that a bucket of water or of milk?

- He is a supporter of England - both of the football team and of the cricket team

- The release will be announced shortly - by the Pope - of my latest CD

However, if the "of" is complementary or idiomatic then it is best to keep the phrase whole and in one place..

[x] - He made a monkey of me and of clay

[= He made me look a fool while he also made a model of a monkey out of clay]

[x] - He gave me a piece of his mind and of cake

[= He spoke to me angrily and gave me a piece of cake]

[x] That large person in the distance - I can't tell if it's a giant of a man or of a woman

[?] - He was a giant of a man and of the theatre

Interesting, but not usual. I would say this is syllepsis and perhaps OK: he was a very large man and also a famous actor

Those are my ideas. I hope I've understood your question correctly, Dave

Moon7296 · Answer

Wow,, you've made my day!

Apart from this thread, I have wanted to know "most common use for "of""; I can study it in dictionaries but I already had a difficulty to sort it out well.

I think it's good to teach students the common use for of as you explained.

I appreciate your nice answer. It seems like I still have a difficulty for some parts of this post; I'll ask more when I can make myself understood.

We spotted a giant of a man and of a woman.

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