Vale/dale

Question

Is there any different between a vale and a dale?A vale has a stream while a dale has a river?

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I think there is no difference between them ,because The Merriam-Webster Dictionary use "vale" to explain "dale" and use "dale" to explain "vale" at the same time.
"Jim Ward" (Email Removed) Ð´ÈëÏûÏ¢ÐÂÎÅ

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[nq:2]Is there any different between a vale and a dale? A vale has a stream while a dale has a river?[/nq]
[nq:1]I think there is no difference between them ,because The Merriam-Webster Dictionary use "vale" to explain "dale" and use "dale" to explain "vale"at the same time.[/nq]
Neither is the standard word for a valley, which is "valley". "Vale" sounds figurative or poetic.
In British topological usage, valleys tend to be named either "Vale of..." or "...dale".** Dales tend to be deeper and narrower, and tend to occur in the hilly North. There being so many of them, the word turns up in expression like "dalesman" and "up hill and down dale".

**(In Scotland, also "Strath..." or "Glen ...".)
Adrian

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I think there is no difference between them ,because The ... and use "dale" to explain "vale" at the same time.[/nq]
[nq:1]Neither is the standard word for a valley, which is "valley". "Vale" sounds figurative or poetic. In British topological usage, ... word turns up in expression like "dalesman" and "up hill and down dale". **(In Scotland, also "Strath..." or "Glen ...".)[/nq]
This thread reminded me of a song I've known since I was a child: The Church in the Wildwood. Here, we have valley, dale, and vale all in one.

The words and music are at
http://members.tripod.com/~Synergy 2/lyrics/wildwod1.html or
http://tinyurl.com/59qgq
Maria Conlon

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The dales in Britain tend to be in the north, in places once inhabited by Danes, for whom, I think, the word "dahl" just means "valley". The vales strike me as more low-lying and larger, like the Vales of Evesham and Glamorgan. I've been to Evesham several times, and for the life of me can see no sign of a vale there, certainly nothing as etched as the Yorkshire and Derby Dales. On the whole, these words aren't used away from named locations. The straightforward word is "valley".
Peasemarch.

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[nq:1]The dales in Britain tend to be in the north, in places once inhabited by Danes, for whom, I think, ... Yorkshire and Derby Dales. On the whole, these words aren't used away from named locations. The straightforward word is "valley".[/nq]
The Vale of the White Horse unfolds itself northwards from the foot of the Berkshire Downs and ends in ... the river Thames, if not before. So it's only half a valley, really. North of the Thames is foreign country, trying to be Cotswolds.
Mind you, I haven't bothered to look at a map.

Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The dales in Britain tend to be in the north, in places once inhabited by Danes, for whom, I think, the word "dahl" just means "valley". The vales strike me as more low-lying and larger, like the Vales of Evesham and Glamorgan.[/nq]
Yes, difference in placename elements may just be due to the different dialects of English rather than to any real difference of meaning - there is a particularly sharp difference in usage between those places which had Danish influence and those places that did not.

The word "valley", of which "vale" is a variant, comes from the Latin. I think for that reason it won't be found in old place names. Perhaps it managed to get into English because it replaced a variery of local usages. I assume "dell" comes from the same root as "dale". "Combe" is, I think a southern form - some have suggested it's one of the few Celtic words to have made it into Old English (see Welsh "cwm") but I seem to recall there is also a related Germanic word it could have come from.
Matthew Huntbach

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[nq:1]"Combe" is, I think a southern form - some have suggested it's one of thefew Celtic words to have made it into Old English (see Welsh "cwm") butI seem to recall there is also a related Germanic word it could have come from.[/nq]
OED discusses this well. There is, it says, no sign of the similar Germanic word (meaning things like "bowl") having been used in this way on the Continent; it points out that if this comes into the question at all, then for the A-S the "cumb"="bowl" word could have made it natural for the settlers to adopt a similar form of the local "cwm". In support, there is a very similar French word for which a Celtic origin has also been claimed. (Didn't we talk about this a week or two ago?)
Mike.

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When we did, I put forward the idea that words may have defaulted to the Anglo-Saxon version when they seemed similar. In the case of "dale", the German word "Tal/Täler" may have been close enough to the Scandinavian for no one to have noticed the change or wanted to revert after the Danelaw retreated.

"Combe" is interesting because its presence in Cornwall goes no further than the far North of Cornwall, near Bude, where the Saxon-named part of Cornwall ends. Of course, Welsh is somewhat different to Cornish, but "combe" sounds uncornish to me, whereas "cam" doesn't.
But there is then the German word "kamm" (comb) to take into account. The Anglo-Saxon word is "camb" :
Camb (o) m. "comb" crest Ep,WW; honeycomb, LPS.
That's how it's given in an online Anglo-Saxon dictionary. So I'm looking for clues in that about the meaning of "combe".
Yes, combes do have crests, but that isn't their defining feature. I know two combes quite well, Combe near Bude and Combe Martin in Devon, and both have thick woods and vegetation - blackthorn and the like - clustering in their throats: and so that makes me wonder if the "honeycomb" definition might be a lead.
I wonder, therefore, if the words "comb" and "combe" are connected, and if "comb" once had a broader meaning than it does now (it was certainly often used in Shakespeare's day in the sense of "coxcomb", the comb in that case being the crest on the head rather than the tool for keeping it in order. But what did "comb" mean for it to be used to describe the crisscross system of bees' honey? All I can think of is the strange similarity between the German word "Kamm" for comb and the German word "Kammer" for chamber. Was the honey made in the bees' "chamber", and was a combe a natural chamber in the landscape (given that the ones I know are steep-sided and like places walled apart?

Peasemarch.

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[nq:2] few I OED discusses this well. There is, it ... we talk about this a week or two ago?) Mike.[/nq]
[nq:1]When we did, I put forward the idea that words may have defaultedto the Anglo-Saxon version when they seemed similar. ... close enough tothe Scandinavian for no one to have noticed the change or wanted to revert after the Danelaw retreated.[/nq]
This seems to be pretty much the official line on what actually happened. I'm sorry, I may not have seen that particular message at the time (as I sometimes ***, OE doesn't make it easy to be sure you've seen all contributions to a thread).
[nq:1]"Combe" is interesting because its presence in Cornwall goes no further than the far North of Cornwall, near Bude, where the Saxon-named part of Cornwall ends. Of course, Welsh is somewhat different to Cornish, but "combe" sounds uncornish to me, whereas "cam" doesn't.[/nq]
But of course "combe" names are found nation-wide, albeit in disguised form see Cumwhinton in Norse Cumbria (which means Wales!), and Cundall in Yorkshire.
[nq:1]But there is then the German word "kamm" (comb) to take intoaccount. The Anglo-Saxon word is "camb" : Camb (o) ... a combe a natural chamber in the landscape (given that the ones Iknow are steep-sided and like places walled apart?[/nq]
"Comb" and "coombe/combe" aren't related: "comb" comes from the -a- end, while "coombe" comes from the -u- side. A comb has toothy or bristly things. OED suggests that the "honeycomb" kind, while a little puzzling given that no other European language treats it the same way, may be so called because of the way it hangs in rows. We need to forget hives with frames here: I don't know if you've ever seen a wild bees' stores, but they do seem to build something rather like a series of irregular longways stalactites (can that possibly have made sense?). There seems to be no link to the idea of chambers.

I don't see anything wrong with the OED line on "coombe" and "cwm"; I think I sketched it fairly.
Mike.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Subject: Re: vale/dale From: "Mike Lyle"[/nq]
[nq:2]"Combe" is interesting because its presence in Cornwall goes no ... Cornish, but "combe" sounds uncornish to me, whereas "cam" doesn't.[/nq]
[nq:1]But of course "combe" names are found nation-wide, albeit in disguised form see Cumwhinton in Norse Cumbria (which means Wales!), and Cundall in Yorkshire.[/nq]
I didn't put what I meant very well. I meant that those "combe" names stop once you get into true Cornwall - odd, if it is a Celtic word (but it may be covered by "cam") - but, yes, of course, they crop up everywhere else in England.
[nq:1]"Comb" and "coombe/combe" aren't related: "comb" comes from the -a- end, while "coombe" comes from the -u- side.[/nq]
My point was just that where words from different languages sounded similar, they might have conflated.
I can't help feeling that "comb" and "combe" are too similar not to have been connected together in peoples' minds, albeit after the etymological fact, particularly as the Cornish, at least, pronounce "comb" exactly the same way as "combe". (And I believe the West Country accent reached much further across England than it does now, and so that may have been a widespread phenomenon.)

Peasemarch.

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