used not to be/were not

Question

What would be the aspectual difference, if any, between these, IYOs? When we were younger, we used not to be allowed to drink coffee. When we were younger, we were not allowed to drink coffee.

Bokeh · Accepted Answer

I find the former (we used not to be allowed to drink coffee) sounds contrived although it does comply with prescriptive grammar. It is negated, past imperfect, passive voice. As such it cannot be applied to a isolated event. The latter (we weren't allowed to drink coffee), negated, simple past, passive voice, doesn't sound at all peculiar and can be applied to a isolated event.

My personal opinion is your sentence would be much more interesting if you were to write it in the active voice and the positive form.

Wanwo · Answer

You might find the first in an older English book, or used by people who want to sound 'sophisticated' but the second sentence is 10 times clearer. Clarity of expression should be one of your highest priorities.

Milky · Answer

<My personal opinion is your sentence would be much more interesting if you were to write it in the active voice and the positive form.>

Sorry, Bokeh, but I wasn't asking about the grammatical validity of my sentences (I know they are grammatical). I was asking about the difference between the two regarding Aspect.

Milky · Answer

WanwoYou might find the first in an older English book, or used by people who want to sound 'sophisticated' but the second sentence is 10 times clearer. Clarity of expression should be one of your highest priorities.

Again, I was asking about the aspectual differences between those sentences.

If you don't understand the meaning of Aspect, here is a definition:

7. Grammar A category of the verb designating primarily the relation of the action to the passage of time, especially in reference to completion, duration, or repetition.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/58/A0465800.html

Bokeh · Answer

MilkyI was asking about the difference between the two regarding Aspect.

I thought I'd answered that above. "Used to" is imperfect, or if you want to use the word aspect, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperfective_aspect, used in this case to denote an ongoing state (not being allowed to drink coffee). "Were" on the other hand is the simple past or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterite which may be used (in English) to represent both the imperfective aspect and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfective_aspect.

Since the verb phrases in both your constructions represent the imperfective aspect there is no significant difference between the two.

CalifJim · Answer

It depends how narrowly you want to divide the idea of aspect. Broadly, both are "imperfective" in aspect.
More narrowly, there's probably an argument for saying that used not to has a more repetitive connotation than were not, and that were not has a more continuous, durative connotation than used not to.
____________

As I apprehend the sentences, we used not to be allowed can easily and naturally take the addition of no matter how many times we asked. The addition of such a phrase does no violence to the default (somewhat repetitive) aspect of used not to.

When we were younger, we used not to be allowed to drink coffee.
[We were told "no" whenever a coffee-drinking situation came up. (We were told "no". We were told "no". ...)]
When we were younger, we used not to be allowed to drink coffee no matter how many times we asked.
[We asked and were told "no". We asked and were told "no". We asked and were told "no". ...]

>>> Essentially no aspectual change when the 'no matter' clause is added.
______________

But when we were not allowed has such a phrase appended, it blocks the default (continuous, durative) reading of were not allowed and forces the repetitive reading.

When we were younger, we were not allowed to drink coffee.
[We were told (possibly just once) that we were not allowed to drink coffee. (So we never did, continuously throughout our youth.)]
When we were younger, we were not allowed to drink coffee no matter how many times we asked.
[We asked and were told "no". We asked and were told "no". We asked and were told "no". ...]

>>> Definite aspectual change when the 'no matter' clause is added.

CJ

used not to be/were not

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