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Secondary sources are the accounts produced by the future historians, using primary sources.What is the sense subject of 'using' here? What does it refer to? 'The future historians'? 'Secondary sources'?Or is it a reduced adverbial clause and a modifier of 'produced'?Or is it a dangler?

Avangi · Accepted Answer

TakaSecondary sources are the accounts produced by the future historians, using primary sources.

The sentence is fine. "They are produced using sources." "Using" refers to "are produced."

I write using the typewriter. (active)

My novels are produced using the typewriter. (passive)

Taka · Answer

Avangi"They are produced using sources." "Using" refers to "are produced."

It's 'the accounts produced by...', Avangi.

Do you still beleive 'using' morifies 'produced'?

AvangiMy novels are produced using the typewriter. (passive)

This seems to be a dangler. Do you think it's an 'acceptable dangler', so to speak?

Avangi · Answer

TakaDo you still beleive 'using' morifies 'produced'?

Thanks for the correction, Taka.
I guess I got trapped by my own "simplified" example.

Secondary sources are the accounts produced by the future historians, using primary sources.

The past participle "produced" modifies "accounts."

Yes, I'd say that the present participle "using" modifies "produced."

I guess you could say that it's the whole participial phrase "using primary sources" that modifies "produced."

The phrase functions adverbially, telling how they are produced.

(As verbals, participials can take adverbial modifiers.)

You could say that the entire past participial phrase modifies "accounts,"

and the present participial phrase modifies the past participial, and is a part of its phrase.

I am the one injured by gang members, using illegal weapons.

Ouch! Another bad example! The last phrase could be adverbial (injured) or adjectival (members).

The last phrase could be non-restrictive, or restrictive (without the comma).

However, with the comma, the phrase could only be adverbial.

Maybe the bad example is a good thing, because it shows that if you remove the comma, the last phrase could be taken as modifying "historians."

TakaMy novels are produced using the typewriter. (passive)
This seems to be a dangler. Do you think it's an 'acceptable dangler', so to speak?Is this a "When did you stop beating your wife?" question?

(I don't think it's a dangler.)

I'm much too tired to be doing this.

Taka · Answer

Hmm...

Secondary sources are the accounts produced by the future historians, using primary sources.

If the part in bold was converted to a complete sentence, it would be:

The accounts are produced by the future historians, using primary sources.

Do you think this sounds right?

About 'dangler', see this:

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/597/1/

Taka · Answer

AvangiMaybe the bad example is a good thing, because it shows that if you remove the comma, the last phrase could be taken as modifying "historians.

If the author thought that historians in general used primary sources, then non-restrictive usage would be fine, woudn't it be?

Avangi · Answer

TakaThe accounts are produced by the future historians, using primary sources.
Do you think this sounds right?

Yes.

TakaIf the author thought that historians in general used primary sources, then non-restrictive usage would be fine, woudn't it be?

Yes, it would be.
It would also be fine if he didn't think that.

The reference to "primary sources" somewhat implies that some of these sources were produced by contemporary historians, meaning historians who were alive at the time and witnessed the events which are later rehashed by "future historians."

Re the restrictive and non-restrictive, let's assume that your author has both contemporary and future historians in mind while discussing this matter.

In his sentence, he's defining "secondary sources," and attributing them to "future historians."

Among the future historians, some may use primary sources and some may not.

I'm just trying to stipulate that by "all historians" ("historians in general") you mean "all future historians."

Yes, you're right that the restrictive phrase would exclude those future historians who do not use primary sources, a corollary which you imply but don't state.

TakaIf the author thought that historians in general used primary sources, then non-restrictive usage would be fine, woudn't it be?

I'm sorry, this is not very clear. Edit. This statement refers to my explanation, not to your sentence.

"Produced by future historians [,] using primary sources" is already restrictive because of the word "future."

Among this group, we may then eliminate those who don't use primary sources.

OR, as you say, if the author's intention is that all future historians use primary sources, the non-restrictive is appropriate.

Re my dangler and your owl reference:

My novels are produced using the typewriter. (passive)

Perhaps you're thinking that the idea is "me using the typwriter" instead of "produced using the typwriter."

(My novels are produced by me.)

In passive voice, the actor need not be stated.

But even if it's stated, the modifying phrase is adverbial, in my opinion, not adjectival.

My novels are produced by me, using the typewriter. (passive)

I produce my novels using the typewriter. (active)

I, using my typewriter, produce my novels. (still adverbial) "Using my typewriter" doesn't tell which "I." It tells how.

The thing referred to by the modifier is the action, and the verb is not missing in any of these examples.

Taka · Answer

AvangiIn passive voice, the actor need not be stated.
But even if it's stated, the modifying phrase is adverbial, in my opinion, not adjectival.
My novels are produced by me, using the typewriter. (passive)

Then, does this sound natural and make sense?

Using the typewriter, my novels are produced by me.

Avangi · Answer

TakaUsing the typewriter, my novels are produced by me.

You're way too sharp for me, Taka -- great fun!

It sounds terrible! A native speaker would never say it.

(But it makes sense.)

Let me sleep on it.

- A.

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