Usage of by vs. until in negative sentences... any known rules?

Question

Hi everybody,I've been making an ESL lesson focusing on the usage of the preposition by vs. until.So far I could come up with an easily understandable rule for positive sentences:- Until is used for repetitive or continuous actions and states (I'll go to school until the end of the year; I'll wait until 5pm; I'll be at the office until 6.)- By is used for discrete actions (one time actions) (I'll come back by8)So far so good, this works fairly enough.But I'm running into real problems to find out a rule for negative sentences, and after consulting 200 grammar books, I just can't find anything on that!At first, I wanted to say that negatives are continuous actions or states, hence they need to use until (He won't call until the end of the camp, He won't be back until 4).But I do find cases where I can use by as well as until (he won't be back by 4).But in this case, the meaning differs, the only explanation I could think of, was that when "until" is used in a negative sentence, it implies that the action will take place right after (He won't be back until 4 = He will be back at 4, I won't work until Thursday = I'll start working on Friday (or Thursday?)), while when "by" is used, then it means that the action can not take place before the stated time and does not imply this action will take place anytime soon afterwards - unlike with "until" (he won't be back by 4 = He won't be able to be back before 4 and God only knows when he'll be back)It seemed all right until I came up with some examples that just don't fit in that explanation:"I won't work until the age of 65" implies that I am working and that I'll stop before I'm 65, say 60. It doesn't mean I am on holiday until I am 65 and then I'll start working!!!I could come up with many more examples like that. Also I can not find any explanation why some verbs can be used with "by" and "until" in negative sentences, while others can not (! I won't watch TV by 4...) or need the future progressive ( I won't be watching TV by 4 - ??? I'm not even sure if this makes sense anymore :-)Well if you can help me on that, I'd appreciate.Thanks

Usenet · Accepted Answer

I'm not quite sure how much to snip...
[nq:1]I've been making an ESL lesson focusing on the usage of the preposition by vs. until. So far I could ... used for discrete actions (one time actions) (I'll come back by 8) So far so good, this works fairly enough.[/nq]
First of all, I'm not at all fond of classifying verbs as "state" and "action verbs". In my view, this is an intellectual exercise that yields very little profit for the students. Admittedly, I'm influenced by the fact that I never really understood the distinction: not at the age of twelve, not now.(1)

Second, contrasting "until" and "by" looks rather unnatural to me. "By" is often used in contrast with "at" (for what you call "discrete actions"). "By" can be loosely paraphrased, and more importantly introduced, as "at X at the latest" or "at X or earlier". Obviously, if all the students have the same native language, and these various adverbials somehow match up with how the prepositions work in this native language, it might make sense to match things up differently.
[nq:1]But I'm running into real problems to find out a rule for negative sentences, and after consulting 200 grammar books, ... unlike with "until" (he won't be back by 4 back before 4 and *** only knows when he'll be back)[/nq]
I have a problem understanding you here.
As for some of your examples, you are neglecting the scope of the negation:
- I won't work until the age of 65.
- I won't be back until 4 o'clock.
Try shifting the PP around:
- *Until the age of 65, I won't work. (The sense isn't preserved.) - Until 4 o'clock, I won't be back. (Awkward, but the sense is preserved).
In the first case, the negation applies to the full predicative "work until the age of 65": that's what I won't do. In the second, only to "be back", which is what I won't "do" ... "until 4 o'clock", i.e. I will be back some time after 4.
So instead of working out some complex rule system no one has the time or brain power to check when choosing between "by", "until" and "at", why not paraphrase a few example sentences?
In addition, it seems to me that sentences like "He won't be back by
4 o'clock" need a very specific context to appear at all: there's anexpectation, or some external need, for "him" to be back by a particular time: "We'll have to leave by 4 p.m. if we want to catch the movie at 5. / Yes, but Jim won't be back by 4, what do we do about him?"
[nq:1]I could come up with many more examples like that. Also I can not find any explanation why some verbs ... ( I won't be watching TV by 4 - ??? I'm not even sure if this makes sense anymore :-)[/nq]
This hinges on the meaning of "by". "I'll watch TV by 4 o'clock" is also not particularly likely. Better with "be watching".

Chris Waigl
(1) If someone is shocked by this admission, let me rephrase that into "the distinction has always left me unsatisfied".

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Hi everybody, I've been making an ESL lesson focusing on the usage of the preposition by vs. until. So far ... not even sure if this makes sense anymore :-) Well if you can help me on that, I'd appreciate. Thanks[/nq]
[nq:1]Hi everybody, I've been making an ESL lesson focusing on the usage of the preposition by vs. until. So far ... not even sure if this makes sense anymore :-) Well if you can help me on that, I'd appreciate. Thanks[/nq]
One of my pet peeves when reading these threads is that people rarely bother to read the entire thread before they start answering, and thus repeat or paraphrase what's already been said. Since you've cross-posted to multiple groups, it would be almost impossible to check out your answers all over the place. So someone somewhere has probably already said this, but here goes.
Since I teach English in Greece, where a single preposition is typically used in place of both "by" and "until," I have a pretty good idea of the kinds of problems you're having in your ESL lesson.

You mentioned 200 grammar books, but the best-known international guidelines for using "by" and "until" are probably the ones found in English Grammar in Use (Cambridge University Press, 3rd edition), by Raymond Murphy. The North American edition is called Grammar in Use (CUP, still in the second edition). If you don't have this book, you should probably get your hands on it somehow.
Your negative and positive distinction has me baffled, and I think that's where you've lost your way. Let's see if this explanation can clear things up...it might not, but it's worth a shot.

"By," in the senses that can be confused with "until," announces a DEADLINE, tells us that a situation must not continue later than a specific time, e.g.:
This report had better by on my desk by 5:00.
If this report is not on my desk by 5:00, you might as well find yourself another job.
(Same meaning in both affirmative/positive and negative senses.)

"Until" highlights the amount of time that is left BEFORE A DEADLINE, to say or ask how long a situation continues, to say or ask how much time is left before something happens.
You have until 5:00 to get this report on my desk. (Yes, the deadline is 5:00, but the speaker wishes to give the listener permission to submit the report at 5.)
A: "****! I've forgotten when the concert is! Let's leave now!" B: "Don't worry. It doesn't start until 3."
(Same meaning in both affirmative/positive and negative senses.)

So, as Murphy puts it in Unit 120 of EGIU: "something continues UNTIL a time in the future, but something happens BY a time in the future."

Other example sentences, courtesy of Murphy:
I sent the letter to them today, so they should receive it BY MONDAY. ( = on or before Monday, not later than Monday)
I couldn't get up this morning. I stayed in bed until half past ten.

We might also head over to a nice little book called Oxford Guide to English Grammar , by John Eastwood (OUP). Section 227.6 reads as follows:
a We use till/until to say when something finishes. Jim will be working in Germany till/until next April. We sat in the pub till/until closing-time.
(Note omitted: irrelevant to this discussion.)
b We can use not...till/until when something is later than expected. Sue didn't get up till/untill half past ten.
c By means "not later than"
I'm always up by eight o'clock. ( = at eight or earlier) Can you pay me back by Friday ( = on Friday or earlier) They should have replied to my letter by now.

Finally, one of the things that's hindering you in your search for meaning is that in your explanation sentence for "until" in the negative sense (I won't work until the age of 65.) can indeed be taken to mean that you won't start working until you hit 65. It's your primary meaning that's dialect (usually in American English).

(Fowler's Modern English Usage (3rd edition) makes that clear. Concise Oxford (11th edition) Webster's Dictionary of English Usage makes no mention of it, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate (11th edition) does not accept it as a meaning of "until," The Chicago Manual of Style (15th edition) says nothing on the subject.)
This is why, as Chris pointed out (2nd message in this thread), switching around the word order murders the meaning you're trying to get across.
However, not to praise Chris's message overmuch: if you're working in a foreign country and your students are less than highly motivated and at a certain ago of dissent (say, older than 13), well, in my opinion...

They are unlikely to attempt to assimilate meaning from example sentences without explanations, form internal rules automatically, or do anything other than stare blankly at such boardwork and think behind the mask: "I hate you! I hate English! I hate your sentences and you can stick them where the sun don't shine, because the only reason you're putting them up on the board and offering no explanation is that you CAN'T explain the difference!"
My perception of students' reactions may be overly influenced by the fact that I'm an American working in a country that despises everything about Americans...except their money, of course.
Good luck, El Torito.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Hi everybody, I've been making an ESL lesson focusing on ... if you can help me on that, I'd appreciate. Thanks[/nq]
[nq:2]Hi everybody, I've been making an ESL lesson focusing on ... if you can help me on that, I'd appreciate. Thanks[/nq]
[nq:1]One of my pet peeves when reading these threads is that people rarely bother to read the entire thread before ... I'm an American working in a country that despises everything about Americans...except their money, of course. Good luck, El Torito.[/nq]
Nice to see you've made the jump from moribund MELE Credo, I'd considered posting to you there saying how much more lively AUE is.

This group gets a fair number of queries from learners looking for a straight answer to a straight question, which sadly they don't always get (see that 'with "the" or without' thread, where all the OP wants to know is whether or not to use an article), so it'll be good to have another ESL/EFL pro around.
DC

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]One of my pet peeves when reading these threads is ... about Americans...except their money, of course. Good luck, El Torito.[/nq]
[nq:1]Nice to see you've made the jump from moribund MELE Credo, I'd considered posting to you there saying how much ... know is whether or not to use an article), so it'll be good to have another ESL/EFL pro around. DC[/nq]
Bollocks, sorry, forget that, it's the curse of following cross-posted links again.
DC

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Second, contrasting "until" and "by" looks rather unnatural to me. "By" is often used in contrast with "at" (for what you call "discrete actions").[/nq]
Well, I've been told to draw up a lesson because the students (adult Japanese) often confuse the two, so unfortunately, I don't have a choice here...
They confuse the two mostly in positive sentences, but I have found myself unable to clarify the different uses in negative sentences (and I know somebody is going to bring that up so it's better to have an explanation ready, just in case)
[nq:1]As for some of your examples, you are neglecting the scope of the negation:[/nq]
Yes thank you for that. I'll sure use that.
[nq:1]So instead of working out some complex rule system no one has the time or brain power to check when choosing between "by", "until" and "at", why not paraphrase a few example sentences?[/nq]
I'm afraid I cannot do that. We are teaching adults, they want to know why* this and *why not that... The first part of the lessons is always guided (they use cards so I can indeed choose the sentences they will practice with) but for the second part they have to use their own vocab... Hence the need to find a not too difficult rule on which to rely on (that's what grammar is all about :-)... that works for most cases...
[nq:1]In addition, it seems to me that sentences like "He won't be back by 4 o'clock" need a very specific context to appear at all:[/nq]
I know, but the "rule" on the negative is not primarly aimed to students (unless someone comes up with a sentence and ask for an explanation), but mainly at teachers: it's the reaction to the material that we often have to take into account. And other teachers finding a counter-example of the things they are supposed to teach is never a good start. so it is a policy where I work to add "notes" in lesson plans... the thing on the negative sentences is mainly for that, and eventually for expansion or probably with an advice: don't venture in there :-)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]You mentioned 200 grammar books, but the best-known international guidelines for using "by" and "until" are probably the ones found ... still in the second edition). If you don't have this book, you should probably get your hands on it somehow.[/nq]
I do believe I have checked that one. But everything about "by" and "until" carefully avoids talking about their use in negative sentences...
[nq:1]Finally, one of the things that's hindering you in your search for meaning is that in your explanation sentence for ... mean that you won't start working until you hit 65. It's your primary meaning that's dialect (usually in American English).[/nq]
Yeah, I was afraid of that.
[nq:1]This is why, as Chris pointed out (2nd message in this thread), switching around the word order murders the meaning you're trying to get across.[/nq]
Yeah, the scope of the negation... I'll have to toy with that one...
[nq:1]My perception of students' reactions may be overly influenced by the fact that I'm an American working in a country that despises everything about Americans...except their money, of course.[/nq]
Well, it's very similar to here. Except I'm not American, Japanese pretty much like anything from the US, and they have more money than Americans :-)
Thanx

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Second, contrasting "until" and "by" looks rather unnatural to me. "By" is often used in contrast with "at" (for what you call "discrete actions").[/nq]
[nq:1]Well, I've been told to draw up a lesson because the students (adult Japanese) often confuse the two, so unfortunately, ... I know somebody is going to bring that up so it's better to have an explanation ready, just in case)[/nq]
Here, some general guidelines.
Basic difference between "by," "until" and "at" is time of initiation of an event. Note mine is basic difference, which indicates "the most simple."

By: an event must complete no later than a set deadline.

Until: an event remains active to a deadline, then stops being active.

At: an event will initiate and possibly complete within a defined time frame.

Your "by" implies there is no set time for beginning an event, but this event must be completed by a deadline.
"I don't care when you begin cleaning your room, just have your room cleaned by tonight."
Use of "until" indicates an event is taking place now, then will stop upon reaching a deadline.
"You will clean your room until I tell you to stop."

For "at" this is bit confusing, is not all that clear. An event will begin upon a certain time, and may or may not stop.

"Today at lunchtime, you will clean your room."
There are inherently lots of exceptions. Context rules meaning of those words, like all words. What I exemplify is the typical, but are not rules.
You might enjoy applying a Bertrand Russell paradox to this which is based upon, "...sentences are entailed by a contradiction."

His paradox, understanding his paradox, might help you to explain your "negative sentences" to students.
"Today at lunchtime, you will clean your room."
Entailed contradiction is most clear for that example. If that statement is true, he will not be performing other activities at lunchtime.

"Today at lunchtime, you will not do anything but clean your room."

Use of "at" can be challenging. Our "at" is a pointer. Often "at" is used to show literal direction; "Throw the ball at him."

Use of "...at lunchtime.." is also a pointer, but not a physical pointer nor a directional pointer. This usage is a pointer to a future time reference.

AT: to point to a defined specific.
Consider sticking with basic meanings for student understanding. Later introduce more complex meanings.
BY: an event is to be done no later than a deadline. ( to be ) UNTIL: do an event up to a deadline then stop. ( is being ) AT: do an event upon reaching a defined time. ( will be )
Again, mine are guidelines, not rules.
Purl Gurl

Usage of by vs. until in negative sentences... any known rules?

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