US remembers fallen astronauts

Question

Headline in The Australian to-day:'US Remembers Fallen Astronauts'Fallen angels, fallen women, fallen soldiers, these I can accept, but fallen astronauts?Comments?Sebastian.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Headline in The Australian to-day: 'US Remembers Fallen Astronauts' Fallen angels, fallen women, fallen soldiers, these I can accept, but fallen astronauts? Comments?[/nq]
I'm sorry, but I find it in very bad taste for anyone to try to nitpick stories about the recent dead. If you don't know how those astronauts died, go look it up. Ditto if you don't understand the difference in meaning between "fallen women" and "fallen soldiers." One of them applies here. The other does not. You figure it out.

Donna Richoux

Usenet · Answer

Thus spake Donna Richoux:
[nq:2]Headline in The Australian to-day: 'US Remembers Fallen Astronauts' Fallen angels, fallen women, fallen soldiers, these I can accept, but fallen astronauts? Comments?[/nq]
[nq:1]I'm sorry, but I find it in very bad taste for anyone to try to nitpick stories about the recent ... meaning between "fallen women" and "fallen soldiers." One of them applies here. The other does not. You figure it out.[/nq]
I disagree that Sebastian's query has anything to do with anything except the language of the headline. It is remarkable language (which is what headlines are supposed to be) because of its ambivalence (dead/ dropped).
If you want to have a go at someone for sullying the memory of the astronauts, write to the editor of The Australian . Sebastian did not commit that sin.

Simon R. Hughes

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Thus spake Donna Richoux:[/nq]
[nq:1]I disagree that Sebastian's query has anything to do with anything except the language of the headline. It is remarkable language (which is what headlines are supposed to be) because of its ambivalence (dead/ dropped).[/nq]
What "ambivalence?" In the tradition of
public memorials (a tradition rooted in Australia
in the First World War) "fallen" is the commonest
euphemism for "dead for king and country"
here applied to a particular group of scientific
explorers. The dictionary open, we can indeed
find a gruesome pun between fallen=dead and
fallen=vertically displaced: the question is whether Australian writers or readers normally do this.
We need some evidence in order to posit this.

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Headline in The Australian to-day: 'US Remembers Fallen Astronauts' Fallen angels, fallen women, fallen soldiers, these I can accept, but fallen astronauts? Comments?[/nq]
[nq:1]I'm sorry, but I find it in very bad taste for anyone to try to nitpick stories about the recent ... meaning between "fallen women" and "fallen soldiers." One of them applies here. The other does not. You figure it out.[/nq]
Oh, come on, Donna, don't be so hypersensitive. If anything it's not the OP's remarks but the quoted headline that's in questionable taste, recalling as it does that image of smoking bits of the Shuttle plummeting back down to the earth.
It was a legitimate question that deserved a more legitimate answer in every sense, because your half-hearted attempt at providing one doesn't stand up to much scrutiny, either. What besides them both being in the employ of the US government is supposed to be the connection between an astronaut who dies because of a design fault and a soldier who is killed on the battlefield? You don't take that "conquering space" stuff literally, do you? Astronauts are just payload, there for purely PR purposes (cf. the views of Chuck Yeager or even John Glenn himself). What makes dead astronauts worthy of the adjective "fallen" while other public-sector workers who die in workplace accidents aren't because they tend to have more US flags stitched to their overalls, or what?
Post-9/11 I've been getting the impression that Americans see their own dead be they astronauts or WTC workers as being somehow special, somehow intrinsically more innocent as "innocent victims" or more heroic as "fallen heroes", and therefore by default more deserving of our consideration, respect and eschewal of "bad taste" than the dead of other nations. Please say it ain't so.

Ross Howard

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Thus spake Donna Richoux:[/nq]
[nq:2]I'm sorry, but I find it in very bad taste ... applies here. The other does not. You figure it out.[/nq]
[nq:1]I disagree that Sebastian's query has anything to do with anything except the language of the headline. It is remarkable language (which is what headlines are supposed to be) because of its ambivalence (dead/ dropped).[/nq]
How can that be the problem? Death and dropping are connected, in the traditional battlefield meaning as well as here. One who is hit during a battle literally falls down. I see the problem as dragging in the "shame" meaning.
[nq:1]If you want to have a go at someone for sullying the memory of the astronauts, write to the editor of The Australian . Sebastian did not commit that sin.[/nq]
He's the one who perceived a problem. There's nothing wrong with the headline. You know the old joke about the psychiatrist giving the guy the inkblot test, where the punchline is, "Me? You're the one who keeps showing me dirty pictures!"
All right, here's a possible out. Is there any traditional use of the word "fallen" to refer to pilots of ordinary aircraft who have died, outside of combat situations? Answer, yes.
Ceremony honors fallen pilots (England)
Air Force pays tribute to fallen pilots (Scotland)

TheDenverChannel.com - News - Ceremony To Remember Fallen Pilots
From Above, Pilots Pay Homage To Fallen Fliers
(Cuba)
two officers killed when their jet-propelled
helicopter collided with another police copter March
10. ... in honor of fallen pilots JamesDavid ... (Calif)
to assist the families of fallen pilots
with the distribution of the remnents of their
flying hobby (Ontario)
Etc. Those who were in the air, and died, through accident, etc. Astronauts are pilots. No problem.
People can say "fallen," it is clean and honorable. "Crashed, burned and mutilated beyond recognition," now then I'd write to the paper. (And my apologies to anyone else here whose memories may be set off by such language.)
Now you're making me wonder about "fallen hero." Is it being used in such an ironic way these days (as a hero who has "fallen off the pedestal") that people don't know it really means (or used to mean) "a hero who has died"?

Donna Richoux

Usenet · Answer

Thus spake Donna Richoux:
[nq:2]Thus spake Donna Richoux: I disagree that Sebastian's query has ... are supposed to be) because of its ambivalence (dead/ dropped).[/nq]
[nq:1]How can that be the problem? Death and dropping are connected, in the traditional battlefield meaning as well as here. One who is hit during a battle literally falls down. I see the problem as dragging in the "shame" meaning.[/nq]
So you see nothing in the headline that alludes to the astronauts' meteoric demise? I did, on first reading. That is what I found potentially offensive. It runs parallel to the "fallen angels" usage, given by Sebastian.
The "fallen women" thing was simply included in an enumeration of how the word "fallen" is used. Nothing offensive there, IMHO.
[nq:2]If you want to have a go at someone for ... The Australian . Sebastian did not commit that sin.[/nq]
[nq:1]He's the one who perceived a problem.[/nq]
1. Is he a native speaker?
2. At least two native speakers have found thepotential duplicity in the headline.

3. Neither of the native speakers concernedunderstood your initial reply beyond that
you thought Sebastian was toying with the
reputations of the astronauts.
[nq:1]There's nothing wrong with the headline.[/nq]
From this side of the Atlantic (semantically speaking), it looks decidedly dodgy. Headline-writers are notorious for their word-play, and they cross the line all-too-often.
[nq:1]You know the old joke about the psychiatrist giving the guy the inkblot test, where the punchline is, "Me? You're the one who keeps showing me dirty pictures!"[/nq]
We're not talking about abstract pictures, but of meaning in language, culture, and our experiences of headline-writers.
[nq:1]All right, here's a possible out. Is there any traditional use of the word "fallen" to refer to pilots of ... write to the paper. (And my apologies to anyone else here whose memories may be set off by such language.)[/nq]
Sorry, when referring to astronauts who died in the way these did, I still see the double reference.
[nq:1]Now you're making me wonder about "fallen hero." Is it being used in such an ironic way these days (as a hero who has "fallen off the pedestal") that people don't know it really means (or used to mean) "a hero who has died"?[/nq]
I wouldn't use it much, if at all. It's a cliché.

Simon R. Hughes

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Headline in The Australian to-day: 'US Remembers Fallen Astronauts' Fallen angels, fallen women, fallen soldiers, these I can accept, but fallen astronauts? Comments?[/nq]
[nq:1]I'm sorry, but I find it in very bad taste for anyone to try to nitpick stories about the recent ... meaning between "fallen women" and "fallen soldiers." One of them applies here. The other does not. You figure it out.[/nq]
You may find my post in bad taste, but this in no way gives you the right to respond in such a supercilious manner. As the French say, à chacun son goût, and I do not happen to share your taste, for I regard it simply as a matter of language. Moreover, I was merely enquiring if anyone found anything incongrous in the phrase 'fallen astronaut' hardly nitpicking. I do not find anything in my post that invited such a response, and if you found it tasteless, you might simply have ignored it. I apologise for discussing this matter further in a manner which must cost you further pain, but as you had no qualms abouts replying in such a condescending fashion, I shall likewise reply as I see fit.

I fully appreciate the difference between a fallen woman and a fallen soldier, but my reaction to the headlines was that the epithet 'fallen' could not be so broadly applied. For example, would a bus-driver killed whilst doing his job be described as a 'fallen bus-driver', or even a pilot who died when his plane crashed, unless, of course, he was the pilot of a fighter jet that was shot down by enemy fire. The inconguity of 'fallen bus-driver' is plain for all to see. 'Fallen' is not a common adjective, and its use is prescribed by idiom, and I was merely attempting to discover if idiom permits 'fallen astronaut'. And if idiom is not accustomed to the collocation 'fallen astronaut', then perhaps the reader might mistake its meaning, at least, upon first reading.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I wouldn't use it much, if at all. It's a cliché.[/nq]
When I see the word "cliché" I reach for my euphemisms.

Matti

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I'm sorry, but I find it in very bad taste ... applies here. The other does not. You figure it out.[/nq]
[nq:1]You may find my post in bad taste, but this in no way gives you the right to respond in such a supercilious manner.[/nq]
People respond in any manner they like. If you are offended by it, then go somewhere else (1). Donna is free to answer the question precisely as you wish, to make a bad joke or to write about how cute her kittens are when they fall off her lap.
As the French say, à
[nq:1]chacun son goût, and I do not happen to share your taste, for I regard it simply as a matter of language.[/nq]
Try Babelfish translation, then.
Moreover, I was merely enquiring if
[nq:1]anyone found anything incongrous in the phrase 'fallen astronaut' hardly nitpicking. I do not find anything in my post ... not accustomed to the collocation 'fallen astronaut', then perhaps the reader might mistake its meaning, at least, upon first reading.[/nq]
I would say than 'fallen' in this usage refers to someone who in the normal line of a risky duty, dies. Its use is somewhat cliched and mawkish. Headline writers often try to get clever and often resort to puns. I find this one a bit gruesome.
Bob
(1) Originally a different three words beginning with 'go'.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]You may find my post in bad taste, but this in no way gives you the right to respond in such a supercilious manner.[/nq]
[nq:1]People respond in any manner they like. If you are offended by it, then go somewhere else (1). Donna is ... to make a bad joke or to write about how cute her kittens are when they fall off her lap.[/nq]
... from which it follows I should not be at all concerned about Donna's tastes, and should, moreover, feel free to post as I like. Surely this is a recipe for discord and flame-wars.
It was not at all my intention to offend Donna or anybody else with my initial post, and I am heartily sorry that it caused her any pain. Had she replied with a polite post asking be to desist, on account of her finding it distasteful, I would have refrained from pursuing the topic any further, for I have a generally high regard for Donna and her contribution to this newsgroup. However, she instead chose to respond with a supercilious and insulting post, and I consequently feel free to 'respond in any manner I like', as you put it.
However, it is seldom the case that people should be free to 'respond in any manner they like', for there are some bounds of decency I shall leave them unspecified beyond which one would do well not to stray. Courtesy and civility should prevail at all times, unless there is a cogent reason to depart from their dictates.

US remembers fallen astronauts

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