Until

Question

I saw this online:1. Radio, television, and telephone transmissions have, until recently, been sent through the air and over wires using electromagnetic waves. These waves are called analog because they have the same shapes as the light and sound waves produced by the transmitters. As light and sound waves change size and shape, the electrical signal that carries the transmission changes proportionately. In other words, the electromagnetic waves are analogous to the light and sound waves. (Is 'have, until recently, been' used correctly here? I thought you couldn't use present prefect with 'until recently' ?For eg.2. I had never been there before until recently. (Correct)2. I have never been there before until recently. (Inorrect?)Thanks.

Katsudon · Accepted Answer

Jack112
I saw this online:

1. Radio, television, and telephone transmissions have, until recently, been sent through the air and over wires using electromagnetic waves. These waves are called analog because they have the same shapes as the light and sound waves produced by the transmitters. As light and sound waves change size and shape, the electrical signal that carries the transmission changes proportionately. In other words, the electromagnetic waves are analogous to the light and sound waves. (Is 'have, until recently, been' used correctly here? I thought you couldn't use present prefect with 'until recently' ?

For eg.

2. I had never been there before until recently. (Correct)

2. I have never been there before until recently. (Inorrect?)

Thanks.

Could you provide the rule and the source please, Jack?

This exact phrase Google search illustrates clearly that this use is fine.

Results 1 - 10 of about 97,400 English pages for "have until recently".

All uses of 'recently' probably do not work.

"I have never been there before, until recently.",

works fine. The rule isn't that we never use the present perfect with past time adverbs. The rule is that we refrain from doing so. In English, one of the jobs of the present perfect is to highlight a past action, to make it current, to show its importance. That's why we refrain from NORMALLY attaching a past time adverb to a present perfect.

In this case, 'until recently' is nebulous enough to pass muster. Similar ones are,

Have you seen John today? [spoken at 11 PM at night]

Have you talked to Marg recently? [Might mean in the last week to a much longer time period depending on the circumstances]

Jack112 · Answer

1. I haven't had time to come here until now. (So this is correct? 'hadn't' is not needed instead of 'haven't'? But it is better if 'hadn't' was used ?)

2. I didn't have tome to come here until now. (Is this okay?)

Thanks.

MrPedantic · Answer

Jack1121. I haven't had time to come here until now. (So this is correct? 'hadn't' is not needed instead of 'haven't'? But it is better if 'hadn't' was used ?)

2. I didn't have tome to come here until now. (Is this okay?)

Thanks.

Hello Jack

Both sentences are fine. In #1, you use the present perfect because the situation is "now".

"Hadn't" would imply a "past" context, and so wouldn't match "now":

1. I'd wanted to ask a question on English Forums. But I hadn't had time until/before that moment.

2. I hadn't had time to go there till then.

MrP

Jack112 · Answer

These two sentences are almost identical right? They are interchangeable?

1. I haven't had time to come here until now.

2. I didn't have tome to come here until now.

For #3 and #4, only #4 is correct? Could you explain the concept again please? How it is different from 'until now' ?

3. In my class, most of the students have enrolled in a post secondary school before they took this course.

4. In my class, most of the students had enrolled in a post secondary school before they took this course.

Thanks.

Jack112 · Answer

Could someone help me out with the post above please?

Thanks.

MrPedantic · Answer

Hello Jack

1. I haven't had time to come here until now.

2. I didn't have tome to come here until now.

— The "connection to the present moment" that the present perfect expresses is redundant in this context, as the speaker evidently has found time to go there. So yes, here they mean much the same.

3. In my class, most of the students have enrolled in a post secondary school before they took this course.

4. In my class, most of the students had enrolled in a post secondary school before they took this course.

#3 is fine if you change "took" to "take". It then implies that "enrolling at a post secondary school" is still "open" and has a present connection.

#4 "closes" the action of "enrolling".

Are you formatting your posts in Word before posting, Jack? They seem to carry over some troublesome formatting.

MrP

Jack112 · Answer

Are you formatting your posts in Word before posting, Jack? They seem to carry over some troublesome formatting.

Yes, I format it in word sometimes. I don't know why it happened here. Sorry about the trouble.

. 1. In my class, most of the students have enrolled in a post secondary school before they took this course.
1 is fine if you change "took" to "take". It then implies that "enrolling at a post secondary school" is still "open" and has a present connection.

1. In my class, most of the students have enrolled in a post secondary school before they took this course. (Let's say everybody is in class and the teacher is giving the students a little bit of information about who enrolled in the class. Is 'present perfect' (have enrolled) with 'past' (took) fine here? Or is it still incorrect and I should use #4 in my previous post? If so, why? Why can't I use present perfect with a past tense? I'm describing that the students have enrolled in a post secondary school, and now they are here taking the class?

Thanks.

MrPedantic · Answer

Well, I think the main problem is that they're taking the course now, but you're using a past tense – i.e. "took".

So "take this course" would fit the context better.

Yes, I format it in word sometimes. I don't know why it happened here. Sorry about the trouble.

.

That's ok, it's not really a problem. I was surprised by the fact that when I quoted from your post, it disappeared whenever I tried to edit it! I think it must have pasted in a table.

MrP

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