Understanding a case of using the Present Perfect

Question

Hello everyone,

my textbook says the following about the Present Perfect.

Since it is the action itself that the Present Perfect makes important, it is frequently used to open up conversations (newspaper and radio reports, or letters) or to introduce a new topic in them.

However, if the conversation (report or letter) continues on the same subject, going into detail, the Present Perfect usually changes to the Past Indefinite, as the latter is used to refer to actions or situations which are definite in the mind of the speaker.

Usually (but not necessarily) some concrete circumstances of the action (time, place, cause, purpose, manner, etc.) are mentioned in this case.

e.g.

"You are all right. You are coming round. Are you feeling better?" "I'm quite all right. But what has happened? Where am I?" "You're in a dug-out, You were buried by a bomb from a trench-mortar." "Oh, was I? But how did I get here?" "Someone dragged you. I am afraid some of your men were killed, and several others were wounded."

As is seen from the above examples, the Present Perfect is used to name a new action, whereas the Past Indefinite is used to refer back to a definite action and the attention in this case is often drawn rather to the circumstances attending the action than to the action itself.

And, in the same book there is the sample:

I’ve been to the library many times, but most of the books I’ve read have been too hard for me to understand.

So why not

I've been to the library many times, but most of the books I read were too hard for me to understand

?

He's told he's been to the library so we know he has read something. So why "I've read" and not "I read"?

About "...have been too hard for me to understand" ...

My theory is that when we talk about past actions in some current time period, and the actions are not strongly connected to the present, we use the Present Perfect to give the new information and the Past Simple for the details.

In this case we use the Present Perfect just because it's the current time period and not because of the connection to the present.

But, when there is a connection to the present, we may continue to use the Present Perfect, like "...have been to hard for me to understand" = "now I'm confused and wondering what did I do wrong"

Englishmaven · Accepted Answer

"You are all right. You are coming round. Are you feeling better?" "I'm quite all right. But what has happened? Where am I?" "You're in a dug-out, You were buried by a bomb from a trench-mortar." "Oh, was I? But how did I get here?" "Someone dragged you. I am afraid some of your men were killed, and several others were wounded."

Are you suggesting that the present perfect example (which I have in bold letters above) presents some "new information," but the past indefinite example offers (or asks about) a detail regarding the past event? And are you saying that the purpose of the past indefinite tense in the sentence "But how did I get here?" was to draw attention to a detail from the recent past, and if it had been read as But how have I gotten here?, it would have been in an attempt to provide the new information that I am here?

I don't agree with your theory. The present perfect tense is not the tense that should be used to present new information. That is not a reason to use the present perfect.

CalifJim · Answer

Pavel Taroutschanges to the Past Indefinite, as the latter is used to refer to actions or situations which are definite in the mind of the speaker.

Off-topic. It's curious that your book names the simple past "the Past Indefinite" because it's used to refer to things that are definite. I don't know of anything that could confuse a student more. Maybe that's why hardly anybody uses the term "Past Indefinite" anymore. I wonder if this is a very old book.

Pavel TaroutsYou are all right. You are coming round. Are you feeling better?" "I'm quite all right. But what has happened? (= "Give me an update." ~ "Tell me everything that has happened up until now." The present perfect is used as an "update tense".) Where am I?" "You're in a dug-out, You were buried by a bomb from a trench-mortar."

Comment in blue.

Pavel TaroutsSo why not
I've been to the library many times, but most of the books I read were too hard for me to understand.

Writer's choice. There's nothing wrong with your rewrite. Sentences which have no references to specific times can be cast in the simple past or in the present perfect without violating any rules of grammar. The slight difference is that the simple past conceptualizes actions as split off from the present while the present perfect conceptualizes them as connected to the present. In many cases this split or connection can be thought of as a time gap between the action and the reporting of the action (past) or as the lack of a time gap between those elements (present perfect).

TIME > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > X (the present moment)
books I read || .............. time gap .............. > X
b ... o ... o ... k ... s ... I've ... r ... e ... a ... d ... X

CJ

Pavel Tarouts · Answer

Thanks for a profound answer CalifJim.

CalifJim I wonder if this is a very old book.

Yep, its pretty old. It's a textbook for students majoring in English by a Russian professor. I've got newer ones (Grammar in Use by Raymond Murphy and Advanced Grammar in Use by Martin Hewings).

The first one is old, hard to read and written by a Russian but it explains many details the Gammar-in-Use ones don't, so I'm using it.

I'm going to try to find The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language today. Maybe that would be better.

CalifJimWriter's choice. There's nothing wrong with your rewrite. Sentences which have no references to specific times can be cast in the simple past or in the present perfect without violating any rules of grammar.

I'm not sure there's no specific time implied. Here's the sentence with more context (my bad, I should have provided it in the original post).

You remember the other time I was here I said I could not talk about books and things because I didn't know how. Well I've been doing a lot of thinking since. I've been to the library many times, but most of the books I've read have been to hard for me to understand. Maybe I'd better begin at the beginning. I've never had any advantages. I've worked pretty hard ever since I was a child and now that I've been to the library, looking with new eyes at books, I've just concluded I haven't been reading the right kind.

But, there's another difficulty with this, I can't see whether he's telling about being in the library since the time they talked before or in his whole life. If it's since they talked before, that is the time for "to read" and "to be hard to understand" actions.

CalifJimBut what has happened? (= "Give me an update." ~ "Tell me everything that has happened up until now." The present perfect is used as an "update tense".)

So the Present Perfect may be used not only for giving new information but for requesting new information as well. I guess the nature of using it for the both is the same.

But now that I've provided more context for the library situation. Could you tell if the same rule (the Present Perfect for new information and the Past Simple for the details) may be applied?

Fivejedjon · Answer

Pavel TaroutsI'm going to try to find The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language today. Maybe that would be better.

That's a must if you are studying grammar as part of a linguistics course at university level, but is far too complex to be of much value to learners of English as a foreign/second language. Michael Swan's Practical English Usage is very useful to learners at most levels, including advanced, and has proved a valuable tool for teachers.

Pavel Tarouts · Answer

fivejedjonMichael Swan's Practical English Usage is very useful to learners at most levels

Thanks for the tip

CalifJim · Answer

Pavel TaroutsYou remember the other time I was here I said ... I've been doing a lot of thinking since.
I can't see whether he's telling about being in the library since the time they talked before or in his whole life.

"since" sets up what follows. You can imagine each following sentence in the present perfect beginning with "since the time I talked to you".

Pavel TaroutsSo the Present Perfect may be used not only for giving new information but for requesting new information as well. I guess the nature of using it for the both is the same.

Correct.

Pavel Taroutsthe Present Perfect for new information and the Past Simple for the details

In my opinion this usage applies mainly to newspaper articles. In any case it's a characteristic of journalistic style. Of course that doesn't mean it can't be used in other contexts. The idea of "new vs details" did not occur to me when I read the library excerpt, so I don't suppose it applies, or if it does, it applies only loosely in that text.

There is more than one reason for using any given tense, so it's pretty much hopeless trying to find one principle that always applies in every case.

CJ

Pavel Tarouts · Answer

Thank you, CalifJim. One more revelation <img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

Understanding a case of using the Present Perfect

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