Ulster accents

Question

Sorry, still too immersed in offspringfeminist-sociobiology-question-mark assessed-essay crisis to play aue properly. (Hey, guys, have you ever reflected what 'sex' means, even post-'gender'? if not, wait for me to report back, baby! If I ever manage to.)But Brian, Lord Hutton, has appeared before the Public Administration Committee, and one of the sketch-writers (Simon Hoggart of the the Grauniad ) has commented on his 'unintelligibilty'. This was clearly journalistic licence, and based more on the Judge's unparliamentary voice-production than on his extremely slight NI accent. But, and forgive me if I've mentioned it before, this accent thing intrigues me. A Southern Irish commentator once said that Ulstermen sounded as though they were speaking with their heads in a bucket of water, and we all know what he meant; but I've observed that certain accents sound seriously repulsive on the lips of those we disagree with, and agreeable or even positively attractive from the mouths of those we generally approve of. White South African and Northern-Irish spring are uppermost in my own mind; RP, or Boondocks Texas, or Quasi-bush-fascist Queensland will no doubt occur to other ears. But I feel that some accents just don't lend themselves to sounding obnoxious, while others seem to be made for the job: can this possibly be true? (For the record, I think Lord Hutton sounds delightful. Those of my political persuasion may wish he didn't, but there you go: into each life a little rain must fall.)Is this thing purely subjective, or is there some underlying nastiness factor somehow neglected in Chomsky's Quixotic quest for evolutionary-psychological calculability?Mike.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

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[nq:1]. . .but I've observed that certain accents sound seriously repulsive on the lips of those we disagree with, and agreeable or even positively attractive from the mouths of those we generally approve of.[/nq]
~~snip~~
[nq:1]But I feel that some accents just don't lend themselves to sounding obnoxious, while others seem to be made for the job: can this possibly be true?[/nq]
~~snip~~
[nq:1]Is this thing purely subjective, or is there some underlying nastiness factor somehow neglected in Chomsky's Quixotic quest for evolutionary-psychological calculability?[/nq]
I figure it's purely subjective. It's sometimes rooted in socio- political stereotypes I still have great trouble listening without prejudice to strong South African accents but not always. (I know a couple of people who really, sincerely distrust anyone with a strong Welsh accent, whilst I find that incredibly attractive.)

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)

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Harvey Van Sickle wrote, in part:
[nq:1](I know a couple of people who really, sincerely distrust anyone with a strong Welsh accent, whilst I find that incredibly attractive.)[/nq]
You're such a tease, boyo...

johnF
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Alice Through the Looking-Glass , Lewis Carroll

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Harvey Van Sickle wrote, in part:[/nq]
[nq:2](I know a couple of people who really, sincerely distrust anyone with a strong Welsh accent, whilst I find that incredibly attractive.)[/nq]
[nq:1]You're such a tease, boyo...[/nq]
Oo, you are a devil. It wouldn't get you very far with my mate Peter, though: he'd be convinced you were after his leg of beef.

(Googling, I see that "piece of beef" is more popular for the rhyme; I'm sure I learned it as "leg of".)

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)

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[nq:1]forgive me if I've mentioned it before, this accent thing intrigues me. A Southern Irish commentator once said that Ulstermen ... of my political persuasion may wish he didn't, but there you go: into each life a little rain must fall.)[/nq]
An observation about White South African accents, or, more specifically, Woozer accents (White Urban English-speaking South African): they are perhaps becoming the RP of South Africa, a bit like the BBC accent of the 1930s. Certainly they are no longer exclusively white.
I suspect that the reason for this is black kids attending formerly all-white schools. This began in the 1970s, but it was against government policy back then and the first non-racial schools were church schools. And the church schools were fee-paying schools, and so those who went there were usually rich.
And when in the 1980s TV producers were looking for black kids to appear in kids programmes, they usually got the products of those schools, where the kids spoke with the same accents as their fellow-pupils and the teachers. And when the kids got older they appeared in teen programes, and some made it into adult programmes as well.
In the early 1990s the government allowed parents to decide the schools admission policies, and many of the English-medium white schools became multi racial, and after 1994 all government schools became non-racial, though not necessarily multiracial. In the old black townships the teachers and kids are still almost entirely black, and so there are different accents there.

So what was formerly a white South African accent is now becoming a middle-class South African accent.
I sometimes hear the sound of the kids programmes on TV wafting through, and till i go and look at the screen I have no idea what colour the kids are from the sound of their voices.
It's the new generation in the new South Africa, and no matter what their colour, if they are under 30 they say "AS well", while those over 30 say "as WELL".
So the accent has become more of a clas thing than a colour thing now. And

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I suspect that the reason for this is black kids attending formerlyall-white schools. This began in the 1970s, but it ... schools were church schools. And the church schools were fee-paying schools, and so those who went there were usually rich.[/nq]
Those early days church schools produced some particularly horrible accents. My late uncle sent his domestic worker's child to a local, very reputable, convent. There were few white children at the convent by then. The child developed a particularly mangled accent that was fairly hard on the ear. Fortunately she moved over to Parktown Girls where the accent smoothed out into something which you describe as "middle class".
[nq:1]So what was formerly a white South African accent is now becoming a middle-class South African accent. I sometimes hear ... no matter what their colour, if they are under 30 they say "AS well", while those over 30 say"as WELL".[/nq]
Accents are interesting things in that we do tend to judge people by them when it is obviously quite ridiculous to do so. I've even met intelligent people who have marked Eastern Cape accents. :-)
Moira, the Faerie Godmother

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Not just accents. It's generally accepted that most Australians who call the letter H "haitch" were taught by Irish nuns.

Rob Bannister

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[nq:1]Not just accents. It's generally accepted that most Australians who call the letter H "haitch" were taught by Irish nuns.[/nq]
Perhaps hindirectly! We never had Hirish nuns teaching in hour harea, and the pronunciation was used by most locals, regardless of age. Only those in my generation were being taught otherwise. Rural education...

It may be generally accepted that the phenomenon originated with Irish nuns, although I have never heard that suggestion myself. If it were to be the case, that Irish nuns are responsible, then we must be on at least the fourth generation of the transference of guilt by now.

Redwine
Hamburg

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[nq:2]Not just accents. It's generally accepted that most Australians who call the letter H "haitch" were taught by Irish nuns.[/nq]
[nq:1]Perhaps hindirectly! We never had Hirish nuns teaching in hour harea, and the pronunciation was used by most locals, regardless ... nuns are responsible, then we must be on at least the fourth generation of the transference of guilt by now.[/nq]
Wouldn't surprise me. Do you say 'fillum' as well?

Rob Bannister

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Wouldn't surprise me. Do you say 'fillum' as well?[/nq]
Not personally. Nor do I say 'haitch'. But 'fillum' was something I heard from time to time - not anywhere near as much as 'haitch', though.

Redwine
Hamburg
(previously: Berlin, Northants, Derbs, Staffs, NSW, Tasmania, Melbourne, rural Victoria, in that and many other orders)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Wouldn't surprise me. Do you say 'fillum' as well? Rob Bannister[/nq]
That's a favourite in South Africa.

Ulster accents

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