Two twenty-five-minute programmes or two twenty-five minute programmes?

Question

There is quite a heated argument on pl.hum.tlumaczenia (a translation group) about the hyphenation of adjectival compounds comprising a number and a unit of measure before a noun. Some favour "two twenty-five minute programmes" while some prefer "two twenty-five-minute programmes". The thing is that non-native speakers of English are having that argument ;-) What would native users of English advise about hyphenating such adjectival compounds?

Regards,
Kamil

Usenet · Accepted Answer

KS wrote on 08 Sep 2004:
[nq:1]There is quite a heated argument on pl.hum.tlumaczenia (a translation group) about the hyphenation of adjectival compounds comprising a number ... speakers of English are having that argument ;-) What would native users of English advise about hyphenating such adjectival compounds?[/nq]
There is no correct answer here. Those of us who dislike even a hint of the possibility of ambiguity in such cases will argue for the

"two twenty-five-minute programmes"
version, but those who are certain that no ambiguity exists because there's no hyphen connecting "minute" and "programmes" will argue that the
"two twenty-five minute programmes"
version is adequate. Bill Walsh addresses this issue in his books on copy-editing, Lapsing into a Comma and The Elephants of Style . This is what he says.
I presonally prefer the first version because it rules out the possibility of any ambiguity and eliminates the need for nitpicking commentators to complain about the "missing" hyphen.

You will find that most of these little quirks of English punctuation are grey (some prefer "gray") areas elephants, if you will that are silly tempests in inconsequential teapots. They matter to the author, of course, because all authors (including translators) think they're right about these things; it matters to the publisher and the publisher's copy editors, of course, because all copy editors think they know best about such niggling issues, and all publishers use a house-approved style manual to settle them; and it matters to all readers because they are the ones subjected to the authors' and publishers' choices.
The only reasonable rule of thumb here and there is no other rule is to lose one's punctuational and other stylistic prejudices about such things and take the reader more into consideration. Make the text as easy as possible for the reader to get through without forcing the reader to have to or want to think about why the author or translator or publisher decided to punctuate a particular phrase or sentence in just "this" way instead of in "that" way. Don't assume that all readers have one's own personal prejudices about punctuation, grammar, sentence structure, or style in general, or that all readers will understand what's on the page because "it's obvious": nothing is obvious to everyone.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.

Usenet · Answer

} There is quite a heated argument on pl.hum.tlumaczenia (a translation group) } about the hyphenation of adjectival compounds comprising a number and a unit } of measure before a noun. Some favour "two twenty-five minute programmes" } while some prefer "two twenty-five-minute programmes". The thing is that } non-native speakers of English are having that argument ;-) What would } native users of English advise about hyphenating such adjectival compounds?

Thank you for not crossposting.
I suspect that there is no particular agreement among native users of English on the subject, but that you have settled on the heart of it (ignoring the minor point that the vast majority of native users of English would spell "programmes" as "programs", but I won't here).

My guess is that a whole lot of people would use no hyphens, on the principle that English keeps things as simple as possible, so their answer would be "two twenty five minute programmes". I'm not one of them.

Anyone with the least bit of pedantry would hyphenate the "twenty-five", so there would be a fair number who would favor "two twenty-five minute programmes". I'm not one of them.
People with a little more pedantry would invoke the compound-modifier rule that would require two hyphens, because otherwise English groups to the right, so to force twenty-five to apply to "minutes" and all of that to "programmes", you would need "two twenty-five-minute programmes" and ignore the minor ambiguity that a body could generate.

This being alt.usage.english, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the concept of "hyperhyphenation" (for which see if necessary), which takes into account the slight problem with the previous version and wants a slightly stronger hyphen within "twenty-five" than between that and "minute", which could result in "two twenty=five-minute programmes". In fairness, I should admit that the concept is not universally accepted, even in alt.usage.english.
When all else fails, true pedants recast the phrase, making it something like "two programmes of twenty-five minutes each".

The safe answer is to follow the style manual that guides the people for whom the text is being prepared. The frivolous answer is to do it any way you want and your editor will "fix" it. The practical answer is that hardly anyone will notice, anyway.

R. J. Valentine

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]When all else fails, true pedants recast the phrase, making it something like "two programmes of twenty-five minutes each".[/nq]
Or, simply, two 25-minute programmes.

Mark Brader > "Nitwit ideas are for emergencies. The rest of the Toronto > time you go by the Book, which is mostly a collection (Email Removed) > of nitwit ideas that worked. Niven & Pournelle

Usenet · Answer

Mark Brader wrote on 08 Sep 2004:
[nq:2]When all else fails, true pedants recast the phrase, making it something like "two programmes of twenty-five minutes each".[/nq]
[nq:1]Or, simply, two 25-minute programmes.[/nq]
But not all publishers allow arabic numerals under 100. These are usually the ones who disallow things like "25%" and require "twenty- five per cent" or "twenty-five percent", as most newspapers require.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.

Usenet · Answer

On 8 Sep 2004 09:01:46 GMT, CyberCypher
[nq:1]Mark Brader wrote on 08 Sep 2004:[/nq]
[nq:2]Or, simply, two 25-minute programmes.[/nq]
[nq:1]But not all publishers allow arabic numerals under 100. These are usually the ones who disallow things like "25%" and require "twenty- five per cent" or "twenty-five percent", as most newspapers require.[/nq]
A good practice to follow in newsgroups too, I'd say. American readers, for example, may not recognise a pound or a euro symbol if posted. What do you see here, my Yank friends, when I write £ and ??

Can most newsreaders correctly display accented letters? I hesitate at times before writing résumé for that reason, even though that accent is the most common of all in our language.

Usenet · Answer

Charles Riggs wrote on 08 Sep 2004:
[nq:2]Mark Brader wrote on 08 Sep 2004: But not all ... five per cent" or "twenty-five percent", as most newspapers require.[/nq]
[nq:1]A good practice to follow in newsgroups too, I'd say. American readers, for example, may not recognise a pound or a euro symbol if posted. What do you see here, my Yank friends, when I write £ and ??[/nq]
It's very funny on this send, Charles. I see the pound sign when I read your post and in my reply, but I can't see the Eeuro symbol in your post. I do see it, however, in my reply. I guess I'm using different code pages for these two functions.
[nq:1]Can most newsreaders correctly display accented letters? I hesitate at times before writing résumé for that reason, even though that accent is the most common of all in our language.[/nq]
I see them correctly displayed.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]But not all publishers allow arabic numerals under 100. These ... five per cent" or "twenty-five percent", as most newspapers require.[/nq]
[nq:1]A good practice to follow in newsgroups too, I'd say. American readers, for example, may not recognise a pound or a euro symbol if posted. What do you see here, my Yank friends, when I write £ and ??[/nq]
It depends. If I switch to Western European (Windows) encoding, I see the proper symbols. If I stay in Western European (ISO) encoding, the euro symbol results in a question mark.
[nq:1]Can most newsreaders correctly display accented letters? I hesitate at times before writing résumé for that reason, even though that accent is the most common of all in our language.[/nq]
It is the encoding choices or availability the determines this. I see the accents just fine.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]It is the encoding choices or availability the determines this. I see the accents just fine.[/nq]
My fingers are not listening to what I want to say.
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]"two twenty-five minute programmes"[/nq]
225 very short broadcasts.

Cheers - Ian

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]When all else fails, true pedants recast the phrase, making it something like "two programmes of twenty-five minutes each".[/nq]
[nq:1]Or, simply, two 25-minute programmes.[/nq]
That's my favourite too.

Rob Bannister

Two twenty-five-minute programmes or two twenty-five minute programmes?

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