Two Inquiries: Intransitive vs. Transitive problem? and Relative Pronoun positions.

Question

After talking it out with some fellow teachers and looking some terms up...we're still a little unsure about our conclusions. Any clarifications would be greatly appreciated!

"I'm going to talk about Ichiro Suzuki." (Starting out a speech).
When I substitute "speak" for "talk"--it works pretty good (I'm going to speak about Ichiro Suzuki). When I use "tell" it sounds really weird to me (I'm going to tell about Ichiro Suzuki). I feel like I need an object or something with "tell"--"I'm going to tell you about Ichiro Suzuki." Is this because "speak" and "talk" are generally more intransitive? Even if this is the case, "tell" can be intransitive at times, so can it be intransitive here? Maybe, "tell" sounds natural to others?

Relative clause positions.

Students had to combine two sentences on an exam using relative pronouns.
1. The lady is a great singer. She visited our family last night.
The lady who visited our family last night is a great singer. (Desired answer)

Is "The lady is a great singer who visited my family last night." Ok? The clause's position sounds weird. Is this because the lady is non-specific--so it's better to put more information earlier in the sentence? Is there another more sound reason?

Example two:
1. Mr. Cimino is a teacher. He has lived in three countries.
Mr. Cimino is a teacher who has lived in three countries. (Desired answer).

"Mr.Cimino who has lived in three countries is a teacher." This sounds fine, but does the clause's position change the meaning of the sentence?
Thanks for your help!
Chris

Andriy Lapin · Accepted Answer

Good evening, Chris,

these are thought-provoking questions you have asked, and here is my opinion backed up by data from authoritative sources.

1. The possibility of tell filling the slot of talk in the example sentence seems questionable at first glance, and rightly so. Out of sixteen meanings of tell half of them are purely transitive (monotransitive or ditransitive); the other half may be used intransitively, but with implications such as to serve as an indication (Her blush told of her embarrassment) or to have or produce an impact, effect, or strain (Every step told on his bruised feet), etc, which, in all honesty, have little to do with the meaning suggested in your example. There is, however, one point which almost exactly matches the sentence in question, viz, the following meaning: to let know or notify (He told about the accident). The difficulty lies in the fact that neither let know nor notify can easily be inserted into the sentence without substantially changing its meaning. Another option is to associate the meaning to give an account or narration (of something) with tell, in which case the only preposition available is of: I am going to tell of Ichiro Suzuki, although one should keep in mind that tell of is chiefly used in literary styles, as in 'The poem tells of the deeds of a young Greek soldier during the Trojan War'. This intransitive use of tell is further supported by the following entry from a combinatory dictionary:

tell v. 1. (A; usu. without to) ('to relate') she told
the news to everyone; or: she told everyone the
news; he told me his name; she told them a story;
— me the truth 2. (D; intr.) ('to be certain') to -
about (you can never — about people like that) 3.
(d; intr., tr.) ('to inform') to — about, of (he didn't
want to — about the incident; — me about the
game; she told everyone of her success) 4. (d; tr.)
('to ascertain') to — from (can you — anything
from a quick examination?) 5. (d; tr.) to — from
('to differentiate') (can you — one twin from
another?) 6. (colloq.) (d; intr., tr.) to - of (BE),
on ('to inform on') (he told on her when the
teacher returned; I'm going to — my father on
you) 7. (D; intr.) to - on ('to affect') (the strain
was beginning to — on her) 8. (H) ('to order') she
told me to leave 9. (L; must have an object) ('to
inform') we told them that we would be late 10.
(Q; must have an object) ('to inform') — me how
to get there 11. (Q) ('to ascertain') can you — from
a quick examination where his injuries are?

In the final analysis, I hold that it is advisable to use either talk or speak + about, as the use of tell triggers off certain controversies.

2. *The lady is a great singer who visited my family last night is a grammatical sentence, no doubts as to that. But, as we know, every sentence is not only a string of words joined by different means, but also an utterance conveying a certain message; moreover, the message itself is divided into theme and rheme. The former is 'given' information, while the latter is 'new'. It is also crucial to remember that 'given' information usually precedes 'new' one, and this is known as end-focus. What do speakers already know about the situation discussed? For one thing, that they are discussing a certain lady (signalled by the), and, in addition, that this lady visited the family at a certain time in the past (at least, this knowledge may be presupposed, since the speakers most probably share the same living situation). What is 'new' information then? Her occupation was hitherto unknown, and this is the rheme. Following the principle of end-focus, this piece of message should be properly placed in the end-position of the sentence. Thus, we have

The woman who visited my family last night is a singer

as the only correct variant.

3. *Mr.Cimino who has lived in three countries is a teacher features a restrictive relative clause as a postmodifier of Mr. Cimino, which is absrurd minding that Mr. Cimino is a proper noun, and these types of nouns are only rarely modified under special circumstances (unless, of course, there are several people sharing this name in the vicinity, which is highly improbable). Changing punctuation would make a huge difference:

Mr Cimino, who has lived in three countries, is a teacher.

The relative clause becomes non-restrictive due to commas. Otherwise, it can be transformed into

Mr Cimino is a teacher who has lived in three countries

where the restrictive relative clause refers to a common noun teacher. In the first sentence, the person's occupation is in focus, in the second - the fact about his living in three different countries.

I hope this will be of help.

Respectfully, Gleb Chebrikoff

Minofachino · Answer

Gleb Chebrikoff, thank you for your response. It's really informative and interesting--I agree with your analysis of "tell."

Gleb_Chebrikoff 3.
(d; intr., tr.) ('to inform') to — about, of (he didn't
want to — about the incident; — me about the
game; she told everyone of her success)

The definition from your combinatory dictionary works, but it still has that controversial element because switching in "to inform" (I'm going to inform about Ichiro Suzki) doesn't sound...well, sound--it's similar to the issues of substituting "to notify."

Additionally, I feel like "tell" brings with it a sense of urgency, importance, mystery, sternness (when used to discipline) or secrecy, which my example doesn't necessarily call for. Finally, I agree it's not advisable to use in my example.

Gleb_Chebrikofftheme and rheme.

I've never heard about theme and rheme or end-focus. These are neat ideas. I'm wondering if we can add another explanation to why "The lady is a great singer who visited my family last night." has a skewed meaning.

We know that the clause "who visited my family last night" is modifying a noun, and that this clause would be an adjective clause, right? The clause's role is to add information, modify, or answer the question Which kind of? If this is the case, this clause relates to the lady, not a great singer. It's awkward to modify a great singer with this information. Is this flawed thinking or another explanation to why The woman who visited my family last night is a singer is the correct variant?

Thanks again,
Chris

Andriy Lapin · Answer

Hello, Chris,

minofachinothis clause would be an adjective clause, right?

in fact, one should distinguish between relative clauses and adjective clauses, which are more precisely termed supplementive adjective clauses and represent only a special case of verbless clauses, as in

The man, quietly assertive, spoke to the assembled workers.

I wouldn't fault your explanation of the placing of the relative clause, though I suppose that it rests upon the unconsciously existing presupposition about what is 'given' and what is 'new'. By way of pure hypothesis, we can make up the following dialogue unfolding between two neighbours in a fictitious neighbourhood teeming with celebrities:

- Who is the lady over there?
- The lady is a famous singer who visited my family last night. You might have seen her luxurious limousine by your windows.

While such a setting is highly improbable under given circumstances, it is in principle not impossible, that's why we should seek for fundamental reasons underlying this phenomenon, and theme/rheme explanation can offer invaluable help. In fact, it is a powerful tool of discourse analysis, and you may find a lot of information on it even in general dictionaries.

Respectfully, Gleb Chebrikoff

Two Inquiries: Intransitive vs. Transitive problem? and Relative Pronoun positions.

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