Twart's Syndrome

Question

An awful & debilitating condition, now seemingly common amongst BBC employees.
Twart's Syndrome ( also known, in some quarters, as Toffee-Noseditis ) was once though to exist only south of Watford, but has now proven NOT to be purely a regional disease, but now commonplace throughout most English speaking areas.
Although there are NO such places as Barth, Newcarstle, Irarq, Parkistarn, Doncarster, Irarn or Afgharnistarn ... Twart's Syndrome sufferers are frequently
heard referring to such non-existent places.
There are no such words as charnce, exarmple, carst, parst or darnce. These words
do, however, have meaning to Twart's Syndrome sufferers. Sadly, these wretched,
afflicted souls are rarely taken seriously by their peers & sniggered at behind their backs.
For most, their only chance of employment is with companies like the BBC, where
Twart's is widely acceptable.
So, pity these poor souls & please try not to laugh at them. Next time you hear one
of these poor wretches asking for a "Daily Telegrarph" in your local newsagents .. just
try to think there, but for the grace of God, go I.

Thank you.
Sir Willie Eckerslyke.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]An awful & debilitating condition, now seemingly common amongst BBC employees. Twart's Syndrome ( also known, in some quarters, as ... "Daily Telegrarph" in your local newsagents .. just try to think there, but for the grace of ***, go I.[/nq]
I have heard a recording of one of the songs from "The Music Man" with "There were birds in the sky, but I never sawr them winging ..."

Those with this condition often don't pronounce "r"s that are present. Generally, letters omitted like that often show up in places that they aren't.
Bill in Kentucky (who wonders where his dropped "g"s go)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]An awful & debilitating condition, now seemingly common amongst BBC ... think there, but for the grace of ***, go I.[/nq]
[nq:1]I have heard a recording of one of the songs from "The Music Man" with "There were birds in the ... often don't pronounce "r"s that are present. Generally, letters omitted like that often show up in places that they aren't.[/nq]
None of this makes any sense to me, because I don't know whether you're supposed to read it with your mind's ear set on rhotic or non-rhotic. Consider, for example, those of you who are rhotic, that there is no "r" sound in Burma, which in American English would be better spelled "Buhma."
Clarifications, anyone?

Bob Lieblich
Rhotic as all get-out

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I have heard a recording of one of the songs ... like that often show up in places that they aren't.[/nq]
[nq:1]None of this makes any sense to me, because I don't know whether you're supposed to read it with your ... rhotic, that there is no "r" sound in Burma, which in American English would be better spelled "Buhma." Clarifications, anyone?[/nq]
Well, yeah, we should specify that. Here in Kentucky our American English accent has a definite "R" sound in "Burma" (contrary to what you wrote) and "car", but not in "law" or "Cuba". I think that is what you mean by rhotic.
Bill in Kentucky

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Well, yeah, we should specify that. Here in Kentucky our American English accent has a definite "R" sound in "Burma" (contrary to what you wrote) and "car", but not in "law" or "Cuba". I think that is what you mean by rhotic.[/nq]
That's basically it. Standard Midwestern pronunciation is rhotic. RP and Estuary English are nonrhotic and I think that at least some speakers of both also use intrusive "r" as in "I sawr him last night." I'm open to correction from the many knowledgeable speakers of those dialects.
To most Americans, "Burma" comes out rhotically, i.e., with the "r" pronounced. But the transliteration was originally made by Brits who were non-rhotic, and the "ur" indicates an "uh" kind of sound (I'm not clear on the exact value of the vowel). Similarly, it takes a while for most American participants here and in AUE to realize that "erm" and "um" are the same temporizing syllable in non-rhotic and rhotic spellings, respectively.
Non-rhotic actors report that one of their most difficult tasks in mastering an American pronunciation is getting the hang of spoken "r".

Bob Lieblich
Not only rhotic but new-rhotic

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Well, yeah, we should specify that. Here in Kentucky our ... "Cuba". I think that is what you mean by rhotic.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's basically it. Standard Midwestern pronunciation is rhotic. RP and Estuary English are nonrhotic and I think that at least ... in AUE to realize that "erm" and "um" are the same temporizing syllable in non-rhotic and rhotic spellings, respectively.[/nq]
In my youth it took me a while to realize that when I saw "uh" in an American pronunciation guide it meant the same as "er" in a British one. It always seemed to me that "uh" suggested something like a long "oo". (In contrast, your "um" makes me think of "hum" without the h.)

Drifting a bit from the topic, it's always struck me as odd that although Americans don't usually drop their h's they do drop it from "herb" (the plant, not when short for "Herbert"), which BrE speakers pronounce with h (unless they are the sort of BrE speakers who drop all their h's). Is it because it's regarded as an import from French?
[nq:1]Non-rhotic actors report that one of their most difficult tasks in mastering an American pronunciation is getting the hang of spoken "r".[/nq]
Non-rhotic non-actors tend to think that imitating an American accent is mainly a matter of pronouncing a lot more r's. No doubt we exggerate it though, in some words, forget about it in others, and get it plain wrong in the rest.

athel

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1] To most Americans, "Burma" comes out rhotically, i.e., with the "r" pronounced. But the transliteration was originally made by Brits who were non-rhotic, and the "ur" indicates an "uh" kind of sound (I'm not clear on the exact value of the vowel).[/nq]
I have a cousin who grew up in Burma and who still goes there regularly. I'll probably be seeing her next week and if I remember I'll ask her. I think the modern name of Myanmar is not so much a change in name as a more accurate representation of the sound. The Burmah Oil Company was written with a final h, and I think (but don't know) that that was because the final a is long (as Myanmar suggests also to a non-rhotic person).

athel

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2] That's basically it. Standard Midwestern pronunciation is ... to correction from the many knowledgeable speakers of those dialects.[/nq]
Mr Lieblich is generalizing too far here, or his inclusion of "both" is confusing, when discussing the "intrusive 'r'". Is he talking about the RP and Estuary English? I didn't reply yesterday when I saw this claim, since I was confused about the antecedent.

There may be a few occasions, (warsh for wash, for example) when there is an intrusive "r" in Midwest speech, but it is not standard or common. I had a college roommate from Missouri who said "warsh", and some cousins from NE Iowa, but no others since my childhood. I conclude that at least the Upper Midwest dialect does not include the intrusive "r". (Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, and probably most of Iowa and Illinois.
The addition of a final "r" to Cuba, Korea, idea and raw (my brother-in-law from Long Island says "rawr" after 40 years in Wisconsin) is something I associate with Massachusetts (the Kennedys, after all) and other states in that area.
[nq:2]To most Americans, "Burma" comes out rhotically, i.e., with the ... same temporizing syllable in non-rhotic and rhotic spellings, respectively.[/nq]
Robert seemingly doesn't recognize that there are standard "non-um (erm)" spacers in American talk "er","ah" and "uh".
[nq:1]In my youth it took me a while to realize that when I saw "uh" in an American pronunciation guide ... that "uh" suggested something like a long "oo". (In contrast, your "um" makes me think of "hum" without the h.)[/nq]
Now here, there is some confusion of terms, since many US speakers would not call "oo" (variants in boot, look) a long "o". Some (as I) reserve "long" for "o" as in "owe, open". I suppose that is why we are urged to use IPA.
[nq:1]Drifting a bit from the topic, it's always struck me as odd that although Americans don't usually drop their h's ... the sort of BrE speakers who drop all their h's). Is it because it's regarded as an import from French?[/nq]
The first time I heard Julia Child (The French Chef) aspirate the "h" in "herb", I thought it was just her own need to separate herself from French pronunciation. I think I was taught the silent "h" as part of the "honor, hotel, after an". Of course, we drop the "h" in herb at all other times, too, just like "honor". I have since found that the aspirated "h" (in herb) is retained in some Appalachian dialects and maybe among the folk in Maine.
[nq:2]Non-rhotic actors report that one of their most difficult tasks in mastering an American pronunciation is getting the hang of spoken "r".[/nq]
Robert doesn't tell us which non-rhotic actors are reporting this, and doesn't give an example of the "spoken 'r'".
[nq:1]Non-rhotic non-actors tend to think that imitating an American accent is mainly a matter of pronouncing a lot more r's. No doubt we exggerate it though, in some words, forget about it in others, and get it plain wrong in the rest.[/nq]
I guess I don't hear non-actors trying to imitate the American accent. Have you ever heard a Spaniard learning to say the "r"? Without the flap or trill that the symbol calls for in Spanish, I mean.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Mr Lieblich is generalizing too far here, or his inclusion of "both" is confusing, when discussing the "intrusive 'r'". Is ... Midwest dialect does not include the intrusive "r". (Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, and probably most of Iowa and Illinois.[/nq]
I grew up in Frankfort in central Kentucky, and my family said it as "warsh", also "Warshington". When I turned 10, we moved to the D.C. area, and I quickly corrected my pronunciation to "wash" and "Washington". 2.5 years later we moved back to Frankfort. Other than this change, I don't think my time there affect my speech much.

I had an aunt that would "warsh" and "rinch" the dishes. I've heard "rinch" from only a few people here.
[nq:1]The addition of a final "r" to Cuba, Korea, idea and raw (my brother-in-law from Long Island says "rawr" after 40 years in Wisconsin) is something I associate with Massachusetts (the Kennedys, after all) and other states in that area.[/nq]
President Kennedy was the first person I ever heard do that. My first thought was that I was mistaken about his being educated. It certainly sounded strange. Of course he sounded strange in other ways, too, among them omitting "R"s.
Bill in Kentucky

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I think the modern name of Myanmar is not so much a change in name as a more accurate representation ... (but don't know) that that was because the final a is long (as Myanmar suggests also to a non-rhotic person).[/nq]
Interesting. Evidently M and B are somehow similar in that region, if "Burma" is really "Myanmar" and "Bombay" is really "Mumbai".

John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]if "Burma" is really "Myanmar" and "Bombay" is really "Mumbai".[/nq]
"Burma" is "Bama." "Myanmar" is an entirely different name.

¬R

Twart's Syndrome

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