To the extent that

Question

To the extent that such varying cycles (such as the 20-year “building cycle” or the seven-year locust cycle) may exist, however, they are irrelevant to
a study of business cycles in general or to business depressions in
particular.

I don't understand this sentence. Well, I am not sure what it means exactly. It sounds weird because of the "however". Can you reformulate the sentence?

Avangi · Accepted Answer

The "however" obviously refers to prior context. I don't think it's that great a sentence. You might as well say, "moreover," or "by the way."

Someone has apparently made a comparison of business cycles to certain other types of cycles, implying perhaps that they have a life of their own and cannot be avoided; and your author objects to this.

It's something like, "Even though these other cycles may exist ( and I'm not even admitting that they do!), they have no bearing on the concept of business cycles and/or depressions."

It's a common misuse of "to the extent." He's saying that their irrelevance is measured by the extent of their existence. That is, since they probably don't even exist, I shouldn't even be bothering to explain to you why they're irrelevant. It's a very childish thing to say.

To the extent the Red Sox have any chance to win this year, their importance to the league is irrelevant. It's a stupid sentence.

"You're no good! - As if I gave a rat's behind."

Anonymous · Answer

Did the author make a grammatical error?

It is from a book called the Great Depression. I thought there was a mistake, but I was far from being sure.

Anonymous · Answer

Can you say: "To the extent that such political means exist, however, they are not very efficient"?

Avangi · Answer

Yes, this is fine. The use of "however" presupposes some contrasting statement, "however,"

This is the same use of "extent" to which I objected. I suppose it qualifies as a colloquialism. I may be wrong. I'll look it up.

If you say, "even a child can play the game to some extent," you mean a child's mastery of the game would be limited.

You may then say, "To the extent that a child can play the game, he may derive some enjoyment from it."

That is, there's some proportiionality. If the child is better able to play, he may derive greater enjoyment.

Your author would say, "To the extent the child can play the game, his understanding of it is irrelevant." What the heck is that supposed to mean? There's no proportionality. The more proficient he becomes, the more irrelevant is his understanding? What absurdity!

I suspect the intention here is, "Assuming the kid can play the game, which is highly doubtful, his understanding of it is irrelevant."

IMHO, this has nothing to do with any meaning of "extent" that I'm acquainted with.

The error, if any there be, is contextual, not grammatical.

- A.

Anonymous · Answer

Full extract

The problem of the business cycle is one of general boom and
depression; it is not a problem of exploring specific industries and
wondering what factors make each one of them relatively prosperous
or depressed. Some economists—such as Warren and Pearson
or Dewey and Dakin—have believed that there are no such things
as general business fluctuations—that general movements are but
the results of different cycles that take place, at different specific
time-lengths, in the various economic activities. To the extent that
such varying cycles (such as the 20-year “building cycle” or the
seven-year locust cycle) may exist, however, they are irrelevant to
a study of business cycles in general or to business depressions in
particular. What we are trying to explain are general booms and
busts in business.

Sorry, I should have posted this earlier.

Avangi · Answer

Hi, Anon, thanks for the additional context. As far as I can see, it confirms my position. (Perhaps you're not familiar with the 7-year locust cycle. The critters go into some kind of world-wide hibernation for seven years, and then all come out with a vengance. Pure sarcasm. Obviously nothing to do with business cycles, except as it might effect agriculture.)

He's saying, in his opinion, what a general business cycle is NOT. It's NOT, as others may think, the combined effects of various "smaller" cycles. (He doesn't yet say what is IS.) These smaller cycles are irrelevant, whether they exist to a large degree or to a small degee. "No matter to what extent they may exist, I STILL say they're irrelevant."

I believe what he wants to say is,
1. These small independent cycles are irrelevant to the study and understanding of world-wide boom and depression
2. Their EXISTENCE is irrelevant (same thing)
3. The EXTENT of their existence is irrelevant (same thing) - even if they exist really really really REALLY! (I still say they're irrelevant.)

The use of "however" is fine. "These other guys say it's the combined effect of smaller independent cycles. However, I say they're wrong, even though these cycles may exist."

I still say the use of "extent" is incorrect. He's saying the small cycles are irrelevant, to the extent they exist. (The more they exist the more irrelevant they are.) As I said in the very beginning, I believe this is a common error. Others may disagree. "To what extent are they irrelevant?" (reply) "To the extent they exist." You may occasionally hear this reply, but I believe it's pure sarcasm, or irony. Edit. This last two-sentence exchange is technically correct, but the meaning is disingenuous. And I don't think it conveys what your author is trying to say.

Best regards, - A.

Anonymous · Answer

Thank you for your answer.

Do you believe, in this case, that "to the extent that" means "insofar as"?

Some people agreed that the sentence meant: "If there are such cycles, however, there are irrelevant" or "These varying cycles may exist but they are irrelevant". I don't understand the proportionality argument. I thought "to the extent that" meant "if".

Avangi · Answer

Anonymous "If there are such cycles, however, they are irrelevant" or "These varying cycles may exist but they are irrelevant".

Yes, I'm sure this is exactly what your author is trying to say. But I don't think that's what he has written.

According to my dictionary, and my understanding, "extent" is a kind of measurement, like "length" or "volume." It's not a "yes or no," like "if." "To what extent have you completed your assignment?" "To the extent that you have complied with my requests, you will be amply rewarded." "To what extent are you willing to go to win this election?" ("What are ye prepared / willing to do?") Of course the extent may be "zero."

Affirmative on "insofar as." In fact, my dictionary defines "insofar" as "to the extent." Sorry that didn't come up before.

Best regards, - A.

<< Do you believe, in this case, that "to the extent that" means "insofar as"? >> And any other case.

Anonymous · Answer

I also thought so. However, I thought "extent" in "to the extent" didn't mean anything in its own after I first read that sentence.

Instead of "to the extent" if it was "insofar as" would it be completely correct?

Avangi · Answer

There's no grammatical error either way. They both mean the same thing.

The beauty of "insofar as" is that it might make it clear to everyone including the author that he has not said what he means. What he means is the two sentences you quoted in your previous post.

Anonymous "If there are such cycles, however, they are irrelevant" or "These varying cycles may exist but they are irrelevant".

To the extent that

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