Thou, you and the Great Vowel Shift

Question

I'd always been taught to read "thou" as rhyming with "cow". But my Northumbrian cousin once said to me, "Ah, thoo's stupid, thoo!", rhyming it with "you". It occurs to me that both pronouns, you and thou, must once have rhymed when they were in regular usage. However, the Great Vowel Shift was kicking in, so "mouse", originally pronounced "moose" or even "moos-uh", changed its vowel sound. However, nobody now pronounces "you" as "yow" - Brummies apart, of course.
I can't find anything on why "you" never got "vowel-shifted". Or maybe it did? Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into the spelling. Can anyone enlighten me?
Regards,
Adetola Obembe.

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[nq:1]I'd always been taught to read "thou" as rhyming with "cow". But my Northumbrian cousin once said to me, "Ah, ... "vowel-shifted". Ormaybe it did? Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into the spelling. Cananyone enlighten me? Regards, Adetola Obembe.[/nq]
Many dialects in old Northumbria (eg Scots, Geordie, Northumberland) did not undergo this part of the GVS. So you get "toon, hoose, broon" for "town, house, brown". These same dialects retain the old "ye" form for the second person as well.
"You" and "thou" were in Old English "eow" and "thu"- not rhymes. The Middle English pronunciations were likely /jo:(w)/ and /Du:/; both got shifted outside Northumbria.
Edmund

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[nq:1]"You" and "thou" were in Old English "eow" and "thu"- not rhymes.[/nq]
So they WERE non-rhyming - that explains it then.
[nq:1]Many dialects in old Northumbria (eg Scots, Geordie, Northumberland) did not undergo this part of the GVS. So you get "toon, hoose, broon" for "town, house, brown". These same dialects retain the old "ye" form for the second person as well.[/nq]
I'm a Geordie myself. My cousin from Hexham says "thoo", but we don't have that in Newcastle. We do say "ye" and even the plural "ye's", though. These pronunciations are considered "broad" Geordie, and it's considered rude to use them to people other than your familiars. Even though I'm from a working class background, my parents always told me off if I spoke broad Geordie as a child. At grammar school some of my more middle-class friends thought it was cool (not a word you'd use then) and "hard" to do so, though their attempts at it sounded rather ridiculous.
Regards,
Adetola.

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Adetola,
My impression is that there are two Newcastle accents, "broad" Geordie and something I think of as "Northeast Standard English". I was there from 2000-2004 and heard both. I shall give some examples, bearing in mind that this is just my instinct and that many speakers fall between these:
BG NESE RP (BBC English)
/jEm/ /hU@m/ /h@Um/ "home" yem-huum-hoam
/sti:@n/ /stU@n/ /st@Un/ "stone" steean-stuun-stoan /ni:t/ /n@it/ /nait/ "night" neet-nuhyt-nite /bal/ /bA.l/ /bO:l/ "ball" ball-boll-bawl
Also in broad Geordie I perceive /l/ as clear in all positions (eg "fillum" for "film"), in NESE dark ("fium").
That's just my impression, I would welcome your opinion on this. I do not recall hearing "thou" there, though I do recall "ye(s)"

Edmund

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Hello Edmund,
So I can answer your question, could you direct me to a site that gives approximations of your symbols below, as I'm not au fait with them:-
[nq:1]BG NESE RP (BBC English)/jEm/ /hU@m/ /h@Um/ "home" yem-huum-hoam[/nq]
/sti:@n/ /stU@n/ /st@Un/ "stone" steean-stuun-stoan /ni:t/ /n@it/ /nait/ "night" neet-nuhyt-nite /bal/ /bA.l/ /bO:l/ "ball" ball-boll-bawl
Which part do you hail from yourself then, Edmund?

Finally, going back to the Great Vowel Shift, how did the differing spellings of e.g. town and mouse ("ow","ou") come about if they were both originally pronounced "oo"? Or is it the case that they were originally different but eventually just converged?
Regards,
Adetola.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Hello Edmund, So I can answer your question, could you direct me to a site thatgives approximations of your symbols below, as I'm not au fait with them:-[/nq]
[nq:2]BG NESE RP (BBC English)[/nq]
[nq:1]/jEm/ /hU@m/ /h@Um/ "home" yem-huum-hoam /sti:@n/ /stU@n/ /st@Un/ "stone" steean-stuun-stoan /ni:t/ /n@it/ /nait/ "night" neet-nuhyt-nite /bal/ /bA.l/ /bO:l/ "ball" ... they wereboth originally pronounced "oo"? Or is it the case that they wereoriginally different but eventually just converged? Regards, Adetola.[/nq]
I took a look at the etymologies in The Century Dictionary ( www.century-dictionary.com ) for a number of words which contained either "ou" and "ow" pronounced as in "thou" and "how," words which had also occurred in Old English (which the Century refers to as "Anglo-Saxon"). I found the following forms (I'm using a capital "U" to represent a small "u" with a macron):
brow
ME: browe, bruwe
OE: brU
house
ME: hous, hows, hus
OE: hUs
how
ME: how, hou, hough, hwow, hwou, hwu, wu, w, hu, and Northern quow, quhu
OE: hU
louse
ME: lous
OE: lUs
mouse
ME: mous, mus
OE: mUs
now
ME: now, nou, nu
OE: nU
our
Early modern English also had these forms: oure, ower, owre ME: oure, ure
OE: Ure
out
ME: out, owt, oute, owte
OE: Ut
thou
ME: thou, thow, thu
OE: thU
town
ME: town, toun, tun
OE: tUn
I don't detect any sort of pattern with which we could predict when Old English "U" would turn into "ou" and when it would turn into "ow." (I'm guessing that "brow" never had a form with "ou" because it was two syllables in Middle English and a "w" would have been the letter used at the beginning of a syllable rather than a "u" used with the (w) sound.)

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Hello Edmund, So I can answer your question, could you direct me to a site thatgives approximations of your symbols below, as I'm not au fait with them:-[/nq]
[nq:2]BG NESE RP (BBC English)[/nq]
[nq:1]/jEm/ /hU@m/ /h@Um/ "home" yem-huum-hoam /sti:@n/ /stU@n/ /st@Un/ "stone" steean-stuun-stoan /ni:t/ /n@it/ /nait/ "night" neet-nuhyt-nite /bal/ /bA.l/ /bO:l/ "ball" ball-boll-bawl[/nq]
Sorry- the bits on the end were meant to do that, but I can see how they could be confusing too :-).
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii ipa combined.shtml

By "broad" I mean the "traditional" accent, usually heard IME from older men. As well as the examples above, this is the one where "nurse" sounds like "Norse" and "work" like a London-accented "walk". Also "wor" for "our" and the use of "gan(nin)" "Ball" rhymes with "pal", not with "Saul".
The one I call "NESE" is basically "standard" English with a northeast accent (though not as strong as the broad one). The Geordie woman from "Teachers" (Linda? Lindsey?) was a good example of this accent. Generally it loses the "broon", "neet", but doesn't take them as far as the southern/RP vowels, hence my spelling "nuhyt". Also it loses most of the distinctive grammar of the broad accent. However it keeps for example the short vowel in "bath", "pass", and usually the distinctive pre-glottalised /t/. (not the same as a Cockney-type glottal stop).

This is my impression. I'm certainly generalising; you'll have a much more intricate knowledge of it I'm sure, being a native.
[nq:1]Which part do you hail from yourself then, Edmund?[/nq]
Newport, South Wales, birth-age 8
Shrewsbury, age 8-20, and again now
Newcastle, 4 years at university, 2000-04
[nq:1]Finally, going back to the Great Vowel Shift, how did the differing spellings of e.g. town and mouse ("ow","ou") come about if they wereboth originally pronounced "oo"? Or is it the case that they wereoriginally different but eventually just converged?[/nq]
It was down to scribes, printers etc- in the end one spelling just found favour. Those two words have always had the same sound. However "ea" and "ee" have not, they were distinct certainly up to the 16th century and probably longer in some areas.
Best wishes,
Edmund

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I took a look at the etymologies in The Century Dictionary ( www.century-dictionary.com ) for a number of words which ... with which we could predict when Old English "U" would turn into "ou" and when it would turn into "ow."[/nq]
Thanks, Raymond, well researched! So it seems that there's little rhyme or reason to the spelling, and therefore we can't deduce any shifts from spelling alone. Just as I was wrong to suppose that "thou" and you" rhymed merely on account of their spelling. But at least I'm somewhat wiser on the subject now.
Regards,
Adetola Obembe.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]My impression is that there are two Newcastle accents, "broad" Geordie and something I think of as "Northeast Standard English". ... just my instinct and that many speakers fall between these: BG NESE RP (BBC English) /jEm/ /hU@m/ /h@Um/ "home" yem-huum-hoam[/nq]
There are two BG variations - /jEm/ and /hY@m/ - the latter similar to NESE but tighter(?) in the vowel sound.
My father speaks broad Geordie wherever he is (sometimes baffles the locals here in Croydon), and he'll usually say /hY@m/
When he says /jEm/ it's mostly jocularly, as a consciously extreme form - though there are older people who habitually use /jEm/
[nq:1]BG NESE RP (BBC English) /sti:@n/ /stU@n/ /st@Un/ "stone" steean-stuun-stoan[/nq]
I'd characterise broad Geordie as /stY:@n/ - almost the same as your transcription but again tighter in the vowel sound. Your BG version can be heard in parts of Northumberland, though, as opposed to Newcastle.
[nq:1]BG NESE RP (BBC English) /ni:t/ /n@it/ /nait/ "night" neet-nuhyt-nite[/nq]
Spot on!
[nq:1]BG NESE RP (BBC English) /bal/ /bA.l/ /bO:l/ "ball" ball-boll-bawl[/nq]
This is interesting. The /bal/ and /b.A.l/ pronunciations I'd recognise as two variations of broad Geordie. Yet to my knowledge the rhyming "call" only has the /cA.l/ variant in broad Geordie - that I've heard; likewise with "wall". This is based on my knowledge of Newcastle - in nearby areas in the North East it may be different.
[nq:1]Also in broad Geordie I perceive /l/ as clear in all positions (eg "fillum" for "film"), in NESE dark ("fium").[/nq]
No dark /l/s in broad Geordie? Surely not. Clear /l/s always stand out to me, particularly if spoken by a man, as to my ear they sound somewhat effeminate or childish - probably because in my opinion Geordie women particularly, and children, are far more likely than men to use clear /l/s where RP uses dark. Similarly I've heard Liverpool women pronounce the vowel in "No" (especially when spoken emphatically) in a way I've never heard from a man. I'd be hard pushed to represent it - it's almost two syllables and is down as much to tone as anything else.
As for "fillum", well, my brother-in-law speaks broad Geordie but never says "fillum". I used to say "fillum" myself as a child until my parents explained to me that there was only one syllable in it - nothing to do with RP. It is reasonably common in Geordie-land, though. It's similar to the phenomenon in most of England where some people say "pitcher" instead of "picture". It's not a question of accent but simply what is considered correct.
[nq:1]That's just my impression, I would welcome your opinion on this. I do not recall hearing "thou" there, though I do recall "ye(s)"[/nq]
No, the "thoo" came from my Northumbrian cousin, who lives in Hexham, a few miles from Newcastle - though I can't detect any great difference in the accent.
Regards,
Adetola.

Usenet · Answer

Yes, I can see how you get to /stY:@n/ now I think about it. As you say, that is more rounded than /U@/ or /i@/.
/Y:@/ is not an easy sound for me to make- perhaps this is where many non-natives go wrong in trying to imitate Geordie, making it too much of an /U@/ or even /i:@/- like sound, not "tight" enough?

This is based on my knowledge of Newcastle - in nearby areas in the
[nq:1]North East it may be different.[/nq]
[nq:2]Also in broad Geordie I perceive /l/ as clear in all positions (eg "fillum" for "film"), in NESE dark ("fium").[/nq]
[nq:1]No dark /l/s in broad Geordie? Surely not. Clear /l/s always stand out to me, particularly if spoken by a ... than I realised. It certainly struck me when I first heard "fillum" in Geordie, as I'd assumed it was Irish.[/nq]
One other construction that I find interesting is this, which I heard frequently there when discussing football results:
"What was the score?"
"Ones each"
(likewise "twos", "threes" I even heard "nils").
How widespread is this? Everywhere else I've been and lived it's only ever been "one each" or "one all". Seems a logical construction I must say, there were two scores of one after all.
Edmund Lewis

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[nq:1]Just as I was wrong to suppose that "thou" and you" rhymed merely on account of their spelling.[/nq]
Chaucer seemed to generally use "yow" (but "youre" for "your" and "you're"), but my understanding is that both were pronounced essentially /u/. I believe that "thou" and "you" (or "yow") would have rhymed for him.
Looking at the Canterbury Tales (1), "you" seems to only be used early on. It's used once in the General Prologue:

Now have I toold you soothly, in a clause,
Th' estaat, th' array, the nombre, and eek the cause Why that assembled was this compaignye
In southwerk at this gentil hostelrye
That highte the tabard, faste by the belle.
ten times in the Knight's Tale:
Duc perotheus loved wel arcite,
And hadde hum knowe at thebes yeer by yere,
And finally at requeste and preyere
Of perotheus, withouten any raunsoun,
Duc theseus hym leet out of prisoun
Frely to goon wher that hym liste over al,
In swich a gyse as I you tellen shal.
This was the forward, pleynly for t' endite,
Bitwixen theseus and hym arcite
That if so were that arcite were yfounde
Evere in his lif, by day or nyght, oo stounde
In any contree of this theseus,
And he were caught, it was acorded thus,
That with a swerd he sholde lese his heed.
Syn that I may nat seen you, emelye,
I nam but deed; ther ny no remedye.
Thanne seyde he, o crueel goddes that governe
This world with byndyng of youre word eterne,
And writen in the table of atthamaunt
Youre parlement and youre eterne graunt,
What is mankynde moore unto you holde
Than is the sheep that rouketh in the folde?
To speke of roial lynage and richesse,
Though that she were a queene or a princesse,
Ech of you bothe is worthy, doutelees,
To wedden whan tyme is, but nathelees
I speke as for my suster emelye,
For whom ye have this strif and jalousye.
That oon of you, al be hym looth or lief,
He moot go pipen in an yvy leef;
My wyl is this, for plat conclusioun,
Withouten any repplicacioun,
If that you liketh, take it for the beste:
That everich of you shal goon where hym leste
Frely, withouten raunson or daunger;
And this day fifty wykes, fer ne ner,
Everich of you shal brynge an hundred knyghtes
Armed for lystes up at alle rightes,
Al redy to darreyne hire by bataille.
And if yow thynketh this is weel ysayd,
Seyeth youre avys, and holdeth you apayd.
*** spede you! gooth forth, and ley on faste!
once in the Miller's Prologue:
But first I make a protestacioun
That I am dronke, I knowe it by my soun;
And therfore if that I mysspeke or seye,
Wyte it the ale of southwerk, I you preye.
and then not again, as far as I can tell. "Yow" shows up 718 times. I'm not sure what to make of this. Perhaps it's meant to represent the knight's dialect, with some spillover into the end of the General Prologue (just before the Knight's Tale) and the beginning of the Miller's Prologue (just after the Knight's Tale).
(1) Or at least the "Robinson" edition, searchable at

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >You gotta know when to code,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 > Know when to log out,Palo Alto, CA 94304 >Know when to single step,

Thou, you and the Great Vowel Shift

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