They discussed or they had discussed

Question

0About 200 noisy demonstrators - some of whom carried a  coffin draped with a US flag - were gathered outside the town hall  where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters.02br02br00Asked if she had been embarrassed by the protests which  have followed her around on her two-day visit, Ms Rice said she  respected the demonstrators' right to protest.  02br02br00"Democracy is the only system that allows people to be heard and be heard peacefully," she said.  02br02br00 "When there are more places where people's voices can  be heard peacefully, especially in the Middle East, we are all going to  be better off."  02br02br01b00Saddam overthrow 'right'02b00 02br02br00Ms Rice said her meeting with local Muslim leaders had been "stimulating and candid".02br02br02br01table01tr01td02br02br02br02br02td02tr02table00 02br00  She said they had discussed how conflicts could be better resolved  through "politics and debate than through conflict and violence".  00  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------02br02br00  She said they had discussed how conflicts could be better resolved ........02br02br00  Is it a must to use the past perfect in this context?02br02br00  Wouldn't you write the simple past?02br02br00  She said they discussed how conflicts could be better resolved ...........   [ Is this flawed?]0-

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

0I agree that past perfect is unnecessary.  Ms Rice uses it to stress that the talks are completed.0-

Rotter · Answer

0 I wonder whether Clive would toe the line with Mr. Micawber. Very recently Clive made some interesting comments on the use of past perfect tense.02br
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Clive · Answer

0Hi,02br
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00Yes, I agree with MrM.02br
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00We all talk so much about the Past Perfect on this Forum that I'm not sure what particular comments you are thinking of. Was there something which seemed to suggest a different idea about this query?02br
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00Best wishes, Clive0-

Rotter · Answer

0  Nothing special, Clive. I thought you would insist that it has to be the past perfect in the given sentence.0-

Clive · Answer

0Hi,02br
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00I see. No, the sequence of events seems clear to me in this case, withuout Past Perfect.02br
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00Clive0-

Anonymous · Answer

0Hi Forum English Experts,02br
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00This is the posted sentence: 02br
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01font00 02font01font00About 200 noisy demonstrators 00-00 some of whom carried a coffin draped with a US flag - were gathered outside the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters02font00.02br
02br
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00I have a few questions about the clause 01font00 "02font01font00some of whom carried a coffin draped with a US flag".02font00 00Should a dash be used in the sentence or simpy commas? What about the following alternatives to express the same idea: Would any of them be correct?02br
02br
001) "00About 200 noisy demonstrators01font00,02font00 01font00some carrying a coffin draped with a US flag02font00 01font00,02font00 were gathered outside the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters. ( is it "were" or "had " gathered?, In my mind, it should be "had". Is it right? 02br
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002) 00About 200 noisy demonstrators01font00,02font00 01font00among02font00 01font00whom; some were carrying a coffin draped with a US flag02font00 01font00,02font00 01font00had02font00 gathered outside the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters.02br
02br
00Thanks02br
02br
00Englishmind0-

Clive · Answer

0Hi,02br
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01font00About 200 noisy demonstrators 00-00 some of whom carried a coffin draped with a US flag - were gathered outside the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters02font00.02br
02br
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00I have a few questions about the clause 01font00 "02font01font00some of whom carried a coffin draped with a US flag".02font00 00Should a dash be used in the sentence or simpy commas? 01font00Both are possible. Dashes make it more of an interjection, more parrenthetical. I don't like dashes, I prefer to use commas myself. It's not unusual enough to require dashes, to my mind.02font02br
02br
00what about00 the following alternatives to express the same idea: Would any of them be correct?02br
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001) "00About 200 noisy demonstrators01font00,02font00 01font00some carrying a coffin draped with a US flag02font00 01font00,02font00 were gathered outside the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters. 00 01font00Fine00 02font02br
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00( is it "were" or "had " gathered?, In my mind, it should be "had". Is it right? 01font00Both are OK02font02br
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002) 00About 200 noisy demonstrators01font00,02font00 01font00among02font00 01font00whom; some were carrying a coffin draped with a US flag02font00 01font00,02font00 01font00had02font00 gathered outside the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters.00 01font00No, no, no. There's a $100 fine for misuse of a semi-colon.02font02br
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01font00Best wishes, Clive02font0-

Matress · Answer

0 01blockquote

01cite10Anonymous12cite10Hi Forum English Experts,12br
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10This is the posted sentence: 12br
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11font10 12font11font10About 200 noisy demonstrators 10-10 some of whom carried a coffin draped with a US flag - were gathered outside the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters12font10.12br
12br
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10I have a few questions about the clause 11font10 "12font11font10some of whom carried a coffin draped with a US flag".12font10 10Should a dash be used in the sentence or simpy commas? What about the following alternatives to express the same idea: Would any of them be correct?12br
12br
101) "10About 200 noisy demonstrators11font10,12font10 11font10some carrying a coffin draped with a US flag12font10 11font10,12font10 were gathered outside the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters. ( is it "were" or "had " gathered?, In my mind, it should be "had". Is it right? 12br
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102) 10About 200 noisy demonstrators11font10,12font10 11font10among12font10 11font10whom; some were carrying a coffin draped with a US flag12font10 11font10,12font10 11font10had12font10 gathered outside the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters.12br
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10Thanks12br
12br
10Englishmind12br
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12blockquote

10Hi expert anonymous!!02br
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00I don't agree with the sentence (2), I don't know why to replace "were" by "had" - gathered here means "came togheter" - "demonstrators were gathered (came togheter) outside". 02br
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00In my opinion it's a perfect sentence. 0-

CalifJim · Answer

1blockquote

00Ms Rice said her meeting with local Muslim leaders had been "stimulating and candid".12br
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11table11tr11td12tr12table
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10 She said they had discussed how conflicts could be better resolved through "politics and debate than through conflict and violence".12br
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11blockquote
10Ms Rice said her meeting with local Muslim leaders was "stimulating and candid".22br
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21table21tr21td22tr22table
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20 She said they discussed how conflicts could be better resolved through "politics and debate than through conflict and violence".22br
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20The first quote is more precise, formal, journalistic, and - might I say - elegant.22br
20 The second is more informal and conversational.22br
20 These illustrate differences in style, not differences in grammatical correctness.22br
20 As is appropriate, the news article was written in journalistic style.22br
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20CJ22br
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Paco2004 · Answer

0 01blockquote

01cite10Rotter12cite10About 200 noisy demonstrators - some of whom carried a coffin draped with a US flag - 11i11b10were gathered outside12b12i10 the town hall where Ms Rice and Mr Straw spoke to reporters.12blockquote

10Hello, guys02br
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00I'm interested in the usage of "were gathered outside". Is this a passive construct? Or is it a copula predication using an adjective "gathered"? I cannot find an adjective "gathered" in any of my dictionaries. If it is a passive construct, is it a passive version of "someone gathered demonstrators"? Personally I feel this "were gatherd" might be synonymous to intransitive "gathered" or "had gathered". Could you give me your opinion? 02br
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00paco 0-

They discussed or they had discussed

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