There ---> Thur

Question

Hi,is it more common to pronounce "there" as "thur" or "th-air"? Only in these cases, though:There's lots of people who...There are two ways to solve...There're some of those...etc.I find it easier to say "thur", it's quicker. I don't have any problems with "th-air" either, though. It's just that I wonder if both ways are equally common. I've never really paid attention to this, but I'm sure I hear "thur" quite a few times.Thanks

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

there = thur doesn't ring any bells, but their = thur and they're = thur do.

CJ

Kooyeen · Answer

Hmm, why don't those bells ring? Let's see if this'll make them ring

:

Direct link - Recorded from Minnesota Public Radio
I understand --> ( ...because there was a legal vacuum at the time it was discovered... )
http://www.filenanny.com/files/44f7b9c9f14e0/there.mp3

Thur was...

Isn't that way of reducing "there" common? I think I hear it pretty often...
Thanks

Nona the brit · Answer

It happens in some accents and not in others. Be consistant with your own accent or whichever one you are aiming for. It's not a good idea to mix in verbal habits from lots of different accents as you'll end up sounding rather strange.

Kooyeen · Answer

Nona The BritIt happens in some accents and not in others. Be consistant with your own accent or whichever one you are aiming for. It's not a good idea to mix in verbal habits from lots of different accents as you'll end up sounding rather strange.

Hey Nona,
yep... as if that was simple, LOL! I listen to English, how can I decide to be only influenced by one kind of English, one accent? I can tell the difference between BrE and AmE, and I can decide which kind I want to listen to, so I always listen to American English (American Radios = 98% AmE) But... when I listen to American English, I hear it in movies, on the radio, etc, and I hear all varieties!
I think I'll always have a foreign accent, or a slight one, or if I'm good I could have a mixed non-foreign accent, unless I move to somewhere in the US. Then maybe I could pick up the local accent. But you know, I'm in Italy, and I get "my English" from the net...

By the way, I also tried to think of this: "If I listen to radio stations from a certain area, I'll hear that area's accent and I'll pick it up". Not quite true! Because DJ's, hosts and guests could well be from anywhere... It's more or less like saying: "If I only watch Hollywood movies, I'll only hear Californian accents"

CalifJim · Answer

Yup. there is almost the same as the in that clip. It's definitely reduced.

You might want to research further and see if the reductions of their and they're are exactly the same as the reductions of there. Or you might not want to! I hear reductions of their and they're that are much less schwa like than what we hear in this clip, and more like the stronger ur sound in earth. Don't know if my intuitions are right about this, but not enthusiastic enough about it to comb through files.

In these cases, I learn more from you than the other way around.

CJ

Kooyeen · Answer

Hmm, I see. When you said "reduction that are much less schwa like", you reminded me that... I noticed that all reduced sounds are not reduced to a fixed and definite sound, but they can take infinite kinds of schwas (schwas that tend e as in in bed, or that tend to i like in bid, or tend to u like in put...). This is what I have in mind when I say that I believe the vowel in "you" in "Do you know..." can take infinite kinds of vowels. It could be a schwa that tends to an "oo" sound, but how much it tends to a certain sound can vary, so you get an infinity of possible variations. The same is true for "do", "as", "what", etc., everything you can reduce. So it seems to me that it makes sense to say that "there/their/they're" can be pronounced in an infinity of different ways, from Th-air to Thur.

But I think that while everyone can notice the difference between "bit" and "beat" (relative difference, you compare the sounds), it is practically impossible to perceive all the variations of "their", for example, or "you" without comparing that to any other sound... you'd need a perfect ear (or absolute ear, I don't know what it is called in English). This means that the set of sounds you use (your accent) influences the way you hear other sounds...
So what I want to say is that this stuff about reduced sounds might well be much more complicated than what it seems... It's not as simple as "reduced sound = schwa". Yeah, what schwa?
The fact that there seemed to be at least two kind of schwa was one of the features I first noticed when I started to learn about reduced vowels. Phonetic transcriptions always use the same schwa symbol, but, just to give an example, I don't think the two schwas in Nebraska are the same. The second (final one) in lower on the IPA chart, IMO.
So I'm afraid I'll just have to trust my ears... fortunately, it seems I can notice a lot of sounds when I listen with my headphones on. Unfortunatly, it seems I can't reproduce them all.

PS: I just remembered that another sound that I find difficult to identify is the one in "we're"... I think it can go from "ee" as in "need" to kind of schwa, passing through an "i" as in "bit". However, I don't think it can reach a vowel as low as the one in "were", for example.

Seems complicated, eh? Hehehe

CalifJim · Answer

...
I noticed that all reduced sounds are not reduced to a fixed and definite sound, but they can take infinite kinds of schwas (schwas that tend e as in in bed, or that tend to i like in bid, or tend to u like in put...). Yup. Infinite sounds about right.
...
This means that the set of sounds you use (your accent) influences the way you hear other sounds... Most likely true, although we try to correct for this where possible.
...
It's not as simple as "reduced sound = schwa". Yeah, what schwa? (I have a post on the five most used schwas in my own variety of English somewhere on this site. It might be among the archived posts.)
Edit: Found it. See I admit that the fifth one (half-tense e) might be debatable. I think this and the sixth one (the unmentioned half-tense o (proceed)) may originate in some different phonetic phenomenon, but I don't know what it is. There's a tension between describing things very narrowly and ending up with 20 different schwas, and describing things very broadly and risking some inaccuracy in the description.
...
Phonetic transcriptions always use the same schwa symbol (Unfortunately true.), but, just to give an example, I don't think the two schwas in Nebraska are the same. The second (final one) in lower on the IPA chart, IMO. Yup.
So I'm afraid I'll just have to trust my ears... fortunately, it seems I can notice a lot of sounds when I listen with my headphones on. Unfortunatly, it seems I can't reproduce them all. Join the club.

PS: I just remembered that another sound that I find difficult to identify is the one in "we're"... I think it can go from "ee" as in "need" to kind of schwa, passing through an "i" as in "bit". However, I don't think it can reach a vowel as low as the one in "were", for example. Think again. I've often heard, "Hurry up. Wur ready!"

CJ

Kooyeen · Answer

Oh! I didn't know of that thread! It's about different kinds of schwas... I wanted to open a thread like that too, but then I thought "It's gonna be a mess to discuss that", so I didn't post. So I see it's not only me that thinks there are a lot of "schwas", or "reduced sounds". Some people just confuse learners, I think... Ann Cook (the author of American Accent Training) says that in AmE there's only one kind of schwa, but if you listen to her she actually uses lots of different reduced vowels.

Anyway, good to know that! Thank you.

Brunate · Answer

There rhymes with: air; hair, prayer and stare.  Strange how the spelling of the same sound is so different.

Anonymous · Answer

>> Hmm, why don't those bells ring? Let's see if this'll make them ring

Direct link - Recorded from Minnesota Public Radio <<

Many Minnesotans have rhotic hardening, which reduces the /E/ and changes the "r" sound. It's not a stigmitized feature, but it is sometimes noticeable to people from other regions.

-0496

There ---> Thur

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