"The" with plural nouns

Question

Hi!A question about the use of the definite article with countable plural nouns.Generally speaking, I've been taught that you omit the article when generalizing and include the article when talking about subgroups.But it seems that this rule is only a very vague guidelines. For example:1. Employees [all of them] in Singapore enjoy good wages.2. The employees [at ABC Inc.] enjoy good conditions.However, the employees at ABC Inc. can also viewed by the speaker/writer as a generalized group and not a subgroup per se. So #2 can be rewritten as:2. Employees [all of them, at ABC Inc.] enjoy good conditions.So there is some arbitrariness here, am I right? The speaker has a choice?Thank you for your help and time!Doris

DorisPao · Accepted Answer

Hopefully, I did not put off prospective responders with the length of the question! <img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/6.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/6.gif' alt='Emotion: sad'/>

Fivejedjon · Answer

DorisPaoSo there is some arbitrariness here, am I right? The speaker has a choice?

I wouldn't say it's arbitrary. The speaker has a choice depending on how s/he thinks of the group, as you say.

DorisPao · Answer

Thank you, Fivejedjon!

What I meant by "arbitrariness" was that, basically, it's up to me and is based on my personal preference, which is what you have confirmed.

Thank you!

GPY · Answer

DorisPaoHowever, the employees at ABC Inc. can also viewed by the speaker/writer as a generalized group and not a subgroup per se. So #2 can be rewritten as:2. Employees [all of them, at ABC Inc.] enjoy good conditions.So there is some arbitrariness here, am I right? The speaker has a choice?

I think in a context where it is clear that the writer means employees of ABC Inc, there is not much difference.

ABC Inc. ... blah blah ... and ABC Inc's employment policy ... yadda yadda ... . (The) employees enjoy good conditions, blah-di-blah ...

DorisPao · Answer

As I had thought. Thank you, GPY!

CalifJim · Answer

We have no indefinite article for the plural. The absence of an article has the same meaning as the indefinite plural article would have, if we had one.

an employee / the employee
— employees / the employees

Sometimes the group selected by the indefinite form of a countable noun is the same as the group selected by the definite form. It's the mental gymnastics used to arrive at the intended group that is different.

Employees in Singapore enjoy good wages. (indefinite)
Mental process: If one is an employee in Singapore, one enjoys good wages.
(Each employee in Singapore enjoys good wages.)

The employees in Singapore enjoy good wages. (definite)
Mental process: All employees in Singapore enjoy good wages.
(Every employee in Singapore enjoys good wages.)

It doesn't matter which logical path you follow, both methods result in picking out the same group.
____________

It's the fact that you have a descriptor that already restricts the group ("in Singapore") that often causes this to happen. Without the extra information there's a difference.

1. Elephants are always hungry. (If it is an elephant, it is always hungry.)
2. The elephants are always hungry. (Every elephant in a particular group is always hungry, where it is assumed that the listener knows which group is meant. He or she can know this either because of the real-world situation he finds himself in or because that group was defined earlier in the text or conversation.)

1. is a generic statement about all the elephants in the universe (even if they live on Mars).
2. is not a generic statement. It applies only to the elephants upon which there is situational or conversational focus.

1. is a little like a statement in a science book.
2. is more like something you might hear from the zoo-keeper if you were visiting the zoo one day. The reference is then to all the elephants at the zoo that you are visiting.

With the right additional descriptor, the difference is neutralized. The zoo-keeper can say either 3 or 4; they have the same meaning.

3. Elephants at this zoo are always hungry.
4. The elephants at this zoo are always hungry.

CJ

DorisPao · Answer

CJ,

If there were a Nobel Prize for providing assistance to non-English speakers, I'd have you nominated. Honestly.

I have printed off your explanation and put it on my office desk for future reference. This is an awesome explanation!

Thank you!

Doris

CalifJim · Answer

DorisPaoNobel Prize

Wow! That post must have helped more than I thought it would.

You're very welcome.

CJ

"The" with plural nouns

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