The usages of "have" [two questions]

Question

This novel is set in a Chinese village before World War One.
Today is the protagonist Wang Lung's wedding day.
He is in a dinner.

It was a place for poor men, and among them he looked neat and clean and almost well-to-do, so that a beggar, passing, whined at him, "Have a good hear, teacher, and give me a small cash?I starve!"
Wang Lung had never had a beggar ask of him before, nor had any ever called him teacher. He was pleased and he trwe into the beggar's bowl two small cash
<The Good Earth by Pearl S. Buck>
1. I'd like to know what the first "had" means.
2. And I'd like to know if the second "had" means "experienced," and if so, "have" in such a usage can take a "that" clause as an object.
Thank you in advance for your help.

Teechr · Accepted Answer

park sang joon1. I'd like to know what the first "had" means.2. And I'd like to know if the second "had" means "experienced,"

They both mean the same which is to experience something or face a situation.

park sang joonand if so, if "have" in such a usage can take a "that" clause as an object.

Can you show us the sentence you have in mind please?

Park sang joon · Answer

Thank you, teechr, for your So very kind answer.

Can you show us the sentence you have in mind please?

Here it is, "**** Lung had (that) any ever called him teacher."

Then I was wondering if when "have" means "experience," I can use all the following three structures.
#1. have + someone + a bare infinitive
#2. have + that clause
#3. have something

Teechr · Answer

park sang joon**** Lung had (that) any ever called him teacher.

Do you intend that as a full sentence or a fragment?

Park sang joon · Answer

I thought of the whole sentence.

Teechr · Answer

park sang joonI ~~thought of the~~ intended it as a whole sentence.

In that case, it doesn't work!

Teechr · Answer

This is an unrelated and personal comment:

I honestly believe that you are misdirecting your energy and efforts with these relatively complex and, I dare say, obscure texts. My advice to you would be to read quality contemporary books/novels and/or newspapers at this stage to consolidate your essential grammar skills and to build up your inventory of standard and natural English phrases in common use.

Park sang joon · Answer

Thank you for your so kind advice.

But I really enjoyed the book as a teenager,and I want to keep on this book, if I can.

Paul Evdokimov · Answer

Since your questions were not completely understood and thus answered, let me help you.
First off, 'subject + have + person + infinitive' is the so-called 'causative have' construction. It means that the subject causes/caused the action to happen, but doesn't/didn't do it himself. It can be utilized in various tenses, for instance:
'**** had a beggar ask smth. of him yesterday' , which relates to the past simple and denotes that **** somehow persuaded/asked the beggar to beg.
'**** has never had a beggar ask smth. of him' , which relates to the present perfect and denotes that **** has never (in his entire life up to this present moment) persuaded/asked the beggar to beg.
Since your original narration is in the past, the author had to 'backshift' the present perfect tense to indicate that **** gained this experience to a certain moment in the past. Hence the present perfect is transformed to the past perfect where 'had had + person + infinitive' is still the so-called 'causative have' construction in the past perfect tense.

And finally, the second clause of your original sentence:
'...nor had any (beggar) ever called him teacher.'
This is merely the present perfect (beggar has called) 'backshifted' to the past perfect due to the already mentioned sequence of tenses.
You can reword this clause as follows:
'Never had any beggar called him 'teacher'.'

Yes, both clauses are about personal life experience at a certain point in the PAST, but it's not correct to rephrase the second one the way you proposed: ~~"**** Lung had (that) any ever called him teacher~~."
You confused the 'causative have' construction of the first clause with an ordinary 'subject + predicate' construction of the second one.
The subject of the second clause is not '**** Lung' but 'any (beggar)'.

Teechr · Answer

Paul EvdokimovSince your questions were not completely understood and thus answered,

Whatever that's supposed to mean!

Paul Evdokimov**** had a beggar ask smth. of him yesterday' , which relates to the past simple

Say, "relates to the past" or "is in the past simple (tense)."

Paul Evdokimovdenotes that **** somehow persuaded/asked the beggar to beg.

That's a possible but a very unnatural and unlikely interpretation. I can't imagine someone actually asking a beggar to beg from them!

The usages of "have" [two questions]

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