The Stuff That Nightmares Are Made Of - Past Perfect

Question

Hello everybody,Take a look at these:1) Before we had finished our meal he ordered us back to work.or 2) He refused to go till we had seen all the pictures. Don't they sound strange? Well... for me they did when I first heard them and I must say they still do. When I was a high school student I was taught that an action which happened before another action in the past requires Past Perfect. When I went to college, I understood it was just a simplified version and that Past Perfect is much more complicated. In these examples above, the actions which take place earlier apear in Past Simple, while the following actions are described by the means Past Perfect. My academic teacher explained that it is 'completion' of an action that is more important for Past Perfect than its time of happening. She went on to say that such situations are pretty common where "before" or "until" appear.Could you please give me a clearer explanation why such things happen? I mean it's quite confusing when something you once thought was simple turns out to be far from simple.I'd appreciate some more examples of this kind of Past Perfect if you could give me as well.Thank you!

Goodman · Accepted Answer

When we were in college, John had taken advantage of my kindness and always borrowed things from me without returning them until I asked.

We had been best of friends until we argued one day over a girl we both met at a party.

Events that took place for a duration of time in the past take on the past perfect.

Action / event that took place quickly afterward takes on the simple past.

It’s possible that a situation where a double past perfect condition may happen.

Hope it's helpful to you....

Aperisic · Answer

Yes your teacher says it right and to make it more clear I add: we use Past Perfect because we want to stress the point in time when the event ended, and there is no other better tool.

Maybe this way it sounds more "natural"

Even before we had finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

To be precise here you would need

Even before we had have finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

but I guess almost nobody would say it that way. So if you use pure math in this case Past Perfect is a replacement for the tense which I name "Past Present Perfect'

)

Compare

Even before we would finish our meal he ordered us back to work.

Even before we would have finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

Even before we had have finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

Even before we had finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

However I agree with you that

Before we had finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

is not natural because the verb is already to finish so this is equally good and less troubled

Before we finished [eating] our meal he ordered us back to work.

If you want to know when we need Past Perfect use this sample of yours

He refused to go till we had seen all the pictures.

is the same as

He refused to go till we finished seeing all the pictures.

and backwards on an example of mine

Before I finished reading the book, he returned it to the library.

Before I had read the book, he returned it to the library.

Hope you got the picture.

(In your first example the verb finish is definitely confusing. We use "had been" exactly to stress a completion of the action, but to finish has that meaning on its own. It is in my opinion redundant. The second example is OK.)

MichalS · Answer

Thanks guys for answering!

Now I finally think I got the picture

Aperisic
Even before we would finish our meal he ordered us back to work.

Even before we would have finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

Aperisic, are these two ok? I mean I've never seen these forms in such circumstances. I associate them mainly with some conditional sentences.

I'm also aware of 'would' refering to some habitual actions in the past, like in:

- Whenever I wanted go to town, he would offer me a lift. Can it also refer to a singular action in the past?

BIG thanks again,
Michal

Aperisic · Answer

MichalSThanks guys for answering! Now I finally think I got the picture

Even before we would finish our meal he ordered us back to work.
Even before we would have finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

Aperisic, are these two ok? I mean I've never seen these forms in such circumstances. I associate them mainly with some conditional sentences.

You are right, of course both examples do not mean the same as "we had finished", but they do have a similar structure.

- Whenever I wanted go to town, he would offer me a lift. Can it also refer to a singular action in the past?

Usually not. Maybe in

When I wanted to go to town, he would offer me a lift

would is from will. This sentence is then the past of

When I want to go to town, he will offer me a lift.

However you put Whenever in the front so would is for an habitual action in the past.

But none of these were your concerns. I showed the additional examples with would only to compare the structure. If you (almost) replace would (which is the past from will) with had (which is the past from have) you have got the structure of that "unusual" usage of Past Perfect. Again, I repeat, they do not mean the same, but they do have a similar structure and thus it could be easier for you to remember them.

With would as you pointed out you've got a special meaning "habitual action" in the past, with "had" at the similar place you've got the action in past the completion of which you want to stress. The fact that they are both special is equally useful to understand why we sometimes use the unusual constructions to express something that cannot be decoded directly.

Some things we've agreed to use for something.

[Again, all your points on usage of would are perfectly correct.]

MichalS · Answer

Thank you, I'm very grateful for your explanation.

Could I have a shot at distinguishing the meaning of your 4 sentences above?

1) Even before we would finish our meal he ordered us back to work.
It was his recurrent habit in the past of interrupting when they were eating.

2) Even before we would have finished our meal he ordered us back to work.
Again, it was his recurrent habit in the past of interrupting when they were eating. What is more, the speaker also stresses that they couldn't finish their meals - maybe to show the employer's cruelty, or something.

3) Even before we had have finished our meal he ordered us back to work. and 4) Even before we had finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

Both single actions, happened once probably, both stress completion (or should I say the lack of it

) rather than the actual sequence of events. Besides, they are not much different, apart from the fact you mentioned that 'had finished' here is quite redundant

Aperisic, could you please verify these comments of mine once again?

Thank you again,

Michal

Aperisic · Answer

Thank you, I'm very grateful for your explanation.

Could I have a shot at distinguishing the meaning of your 4 sentences above?

1) Even before we would finish our meal he ordered us back to work.

It was his recurrent habit in the past of interrupting when they were eating.

Yes, that could be one solution. Then, it is possible as well

Even before we would finish our meal he would order us back to work.

If you are bothered with double "would" style, voila, remove the second one

)

[ The example is not suitable to explain another possible meaning. I'll try with this one

Even before we would start our meal he ordered us back to work.

This wants to say: Even before we started thinking of the meal... would = wanted to = being about to

From this point of view Even before we would finish our meal he ordered us back to work could have meant long before we finished our meal, but then it would be in a small collision with Even before, and since it is not that good, I stick with your definition better.

Observe that would in "before we would" could be understood as the past of will and it is not permissible to have future in the past within a time clause, so either would is better be replaced by another verb or it is a common past event described.]

2) Even before we would have finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

Again, it was his recurrent habit in the past of interrupting when they were eating. What is more, the speaker also stresses that they couldn't finish their meals - maybe to show the employer's cruelty, or something.

Yes, that is so.

3) Even before we had have finished our meal he ordered us back to work. and 4) Even before we had finished our meal he ordered us back to work.

Both single actions, happened once probably, both stress completion (or should I say the lack of it

) rather than the actual sequence of events. Besides, they are not much different, apart from the fact you mentioned that 'had finished' here is quite redundant

Yes.

To explain more the slight difference between 2 and (3-4)

"would have finished" means we did not finish the meal but we probably left for what boss said (or went to strike

)

"had finished" says only precisely when he gave an order to us, it does not say did we listen or not, did we finish eating at all or not - at the end (but we definitely considered ending the meal)

In the above example it is the context that says more as is in many other cases, not the construction.

I was scared. He honked just before we had entered the bus.

does not say that we did not enter at all at the end, maybe we just stopped for a moment.

Even before we had finished our meal he ordered us back to work. We refused and kept on with our meal.
FINE
Even before we would have finished our meal he ordered us back to work. We refused and kept on with our meal.
NOT GOOD

(One point. You will rarely find we had have finished. It is so rare that many people consider it very strange. It is used in negative sometimes "If I hadn't have been looking to the left, that truck would have run over me." If I have to define its usage "had have been" is the past action that happened just before or at the time of another past action. But if I ever find its strict definition I'll let you know.)

So, to be as precise as possible "had been" in your samples serves to stress the end, a temporary delay, abruption, or something that may eventually cause the quick end of action.

Now, I think it's nailed down.

MichalS · Answer

AperisicNow, I think it's nailed down.

Yes, it is indeed! Thanks for letting me in some real practical grammar and not these dry constructions and patterns

much obliged

Aperisic · Answer

MichalS
Aperisic
Now, I think it's nailed down.

Yes, it is indeed! Thanks for letting me in some real practical grammar and not these dry constructions and patterns much obliged

Good - I am glad I helped.

The Stuff That Nightmares Are Made Of - Past Perfect

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