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Witiko Posted 16 years ago
Grammar

The sorrows of the subjunctive mood

I'm kind of puzzled as to the cases in which the subjunctive mood is supposed to be used. I believe the Subjunctive in English consists of these elements:

  • Subjunctive verb form (expressing a wish or urgent need -"I suggest he run...")
  • Past tenses of verbs / also reffered to as the imperfect Subjunctive (expressing an unreal wish... or the fact that it's time to get things done -"It's time you paid the bills." but that has nothing to do with subjunctive, now does it?)
  • Modal verbs (sometimes expressing the subjunctive mood"I suggest he should run...")
  • End of the list?


This seems fine and comprehensible, but these two quotations are what bothers me:

?"The old subjunctive is disappearing as language usage becomes modified and simplified. Current business usage recognizes it only as a wish mood."

Does it mean that for example this sentence: "This mistake is but deepened by further emphasizing that "Master Plot" be a family film when in fact it was too long and occasionally sheer incomprehensible for child audiences to reliably follow." is wrong? It doesn't seem to express a wish, although it could be paraphrased as "should be / is supposed, believed to be a family film" or simply using the indicative form:"is a family film".

Also "Essentially, the subjunctive case or mood in the English language is used when something is desired but unattainable." makes me slightly confused once again. Does "I suggest he stay here." reffer to an unattainable wish? It's a wish for sure, yet not unattainable / unreal as it reffers to a future action, not an event of the past we couldn't influence anymore. Or is it?

When one thinks of subjunctive as of conjunctive in the other germanic languages, it becomes easier to comprehend and get accustomed to it. Yet there are few things which are unclear to me and effectively constrain me from using it freely in sentences, lest I use it erroneously (mostly in the case of the subjunctive form). I tried to summarize those unclarities in the paragraphs above. I hope you can help me make sense of all this.
  

Top answer

Good header for your post! See [Note that some teachers, grammarians, and linguists, including some who reply to questions like yours on this forum, do not take the point of view you will get in the link above, which is a traditional view. They explain what is traditionally called "subjunctive" in completely different ways, even avoiding the word "subjunctive" wherever possible.

— CalifJim

  • Good header for your post!
  • See [Note that some teachers, grammarians, and linguists, including some who reply to questions like yours on this forum, do not take the point of view you will get in the link above, which is a traditional view.
  • They explain what is traditionally called "subjunctive" in completely different ways, even avoiding the word "subjunctive" wherever possible.
  • ] Witiko This mistake is but deepened by further emphasizing that "Master Plot" be a family film when in fact it was too long To my ear, this is a strange use of the subjunctive.
  • Maybe further context makes it clearer why the subjunctive was used.
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20 Answers
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Good header for your post! Emotion: smile

See

[Note that some teachers, grammarians, and linguists, including some who reply t
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CalifJimGood header for your post!
The Sorrows of Young Wertherinspired me. Emotion: smile
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WitikoShould I face any other subjunctive-related problems, I'll surely extend this or the aforementioned topic.
Sounds like a plan!

CJ
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Ok, there is another thing which is unclear to me concerning Subjunctive - WISH CLAUSES.

Lets see:
I wish I had been born a cat. - To my ears sounds like past perfect subjunctive expressing an unreal past wish.
I wish I were a crocodile. - Sounds like past subjunctive expressing an unreal present wish.
I wish he would stop shouting! -
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WitikoI wish that he stop shouting! ?
No! It sounds like a bad translation from French or Spanish! In any case, it's not English!

"wish" has a unique grammar. It's an untamable wild animal!

For more on "wish" see and follow the links given there as well.

CJ
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CalifJimNo! It sounds like a bad translation from French or Spanish! In any case, it's not English!
Pity, given that it's a completely fine sentence with ask or demand instead of wish.

Alright, but the original sentence with that would-construction does express the idea of subjunctiveness, right? As well as shou
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Witikobut the original sentence with that would-construction does express the idea of subjunctiveness, right?
I don't know how to answer this.
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WitikoI wish I had been born a cat. - To my ears sounds like past perfect subjunctive expressing an unreal past wish.
I wish I were a crocodile. - Sounds like past subjunctive expressing an unreal present wish.
I wish he would stop shouting! - Sounds like a sentence with present subjunctive meaning?
My recommendation is to learn the patterns with wi
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I've already learnt them, I'm just trying to make sense of them. The unreal wish-clauses seem to be past and past perfect subjunctive forms, so I will only learn the pattern for the real wish-clause with would.

Thanks for your input, I would be using the I wish that he... otherwise, as I'm in love with present subjunctive constructions right now.
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WitikoI'm in love with present subjunctive ...
Just don't get carried away!

CJ
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