the same VS same

Question

Hi,I occasionally encounter the "bare" same ( = not preceded by the definite article) when reading technical documentation. And I really cannot figure out whether such usage ("article stripped same") is ok or not...All I know is that there are a few "set phrases" where same is (rightly :-) used without the definite article, specifically:same to yousame heresame againCan we say that the definite article is mandatory before same in all the other cases?Hope my question makes sense.mus-te

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

MUSCOVITEAll I know is that there are a few "set phrases" where same is (rightly :-) used without the definite article, specifically:same to yousame heresame again

It is slang.

MUSCOVITECan we say that the definite article is mandatory before same in all the other cases?

99.9% yes.

MUSCOVITEHope my question makes sense.

Absolutely. My students meet the same problem. I teach them that they might as well consider 'the same' a single word.

MUSCOVITE · Answer

Mister Micawber I teach them that they might as well consider 'the same' a single word.

It's an interesting approach to solving this issue! Thank you MM!

CalifJim · Answer

Mister Micawberthey might as well consider 'the same' a single word

Well put.

CJ

MUSCOVITE · Answer

Hi CalifJim,

Could your please comment on the construct well put (and perhaps even generalize it somehow)?

(1) All English learners (me too :-) are familiar with the cliche well done!...
It looks like well done and well put both comply with the general formula WELL [PAST PARTICIPLE]?
(2) If you could add more ("popular") examples to the list below?

well done!
well played!
well said!
well put!

(Also, it would be great if each phrase specified in the list was accompanied by a (short/simple) example sentence...Is it doable?......)

mus-te

CalifJim · Answer

MUSCOVITEit would be great if each phrase specified in the list was accompanied by a (short/simple) example sentence.

Hmmm. Those ARE the short simple example sentences! (Just capitalize Well and you've got them.) They are all abbreviated forms of "That was well [PP]", which are all positive reactions to actions seen or heard. The verb has to be transitive, of course. (You can't say Well slept or Well laughed, for example.) You have already given more examples than I might have thought of myself.

The choices are very limited. None of the following make any sense.

Well killed! / Well drenched! / Well bounced! / Well pushed! / Well opened! / Well found! / Well forgotten!
_________

Verbs about verbal processes (like said) are more likely reactions to things said.

Well [explained / expressed / argued / told / stated / phrased]!

And possibly very general verbs (like done) that express accomplishment as reactions to things done.

Well executed!

CJ

Anonymous · Answer

This is an interesting question, something that native speakers have never thought about. Apparently, the word "same" always requires "the" before it. Instances where it appears alone are elliptical, that is, the "the" is omitted and understood from the context (in fact, "same to you" is actually "the same to you," "same here" is actually "the same here," etc.), for example:

You don't like vanilla ice cream unless it has strawberries on it? Same with me. (This is actually: "It's the same with me.")

You can get same-day service for a dollar extra. (This is actually: "the same day service.")

The only apparent exception to this is when "a" is required before "same," rather than "the," for example:

You can get a flight to Denver that arrives there in the morning, handle your business there, and then catch a same-day flight back to LA. ("A" is required here. "The" cannot be used.)

Rover_KE · Answer

In BrE, it's very common to see, say and read

'I finished my essay and gave same to my teacher for marking'.

CalifJim · Answer

Rover_KEIn BrE, it's very common to see, say and read 'I finished my essay and gave same to my teacher for marking'.

CJ

Mister Micawber · Answer

Rover_KE'I finished my essay and gave same to my teacher for marking'.

I suspect 'the' is still elided though, eh?

MUSCOVITE · Answer

Rover_KEIn BrE, it's very common to see, say and read'I finished my essay and gave same to my teacher for marking'.

Thank you for the interesting example, Rover_KE!
Looks like this use of "same" is not "welcome" by some AE speakers?...
Is variety the spice of the English language?

the same VS same

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