The pronunciation of "th"

Question

I'm from Ireland originally and my original dialect of English doesn't have the "th" sound. Instead, the "th" sound is replaced with either a "d" or "t".
The "d" corresponds to the soft "th" sound such as in "there, this, that, they, then, than".
The "t" corresponds to the loud "th" sound such as in "think, thermal, thanks, thindle".
I'm now an English teacher and so I want to hurry along the process of getting a grip on "th".
So firstly, I'd like to compile a finite list of words that have the soft "th" sound. Here's what I got so far:
the, this, that, these, those, there, they, them, then, than, their, theirs
Also, I'd like to compile a finite list of words in which the "th" is pronounced as a solid "t" (if there are any?). For instance, I have my suspicions that the following words are pronounced which a hard t: Thomas Thailand Thai
Any help compiling these lists is greatly appreciated.

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[nq:1]I'm from Ireland originally and my original dialect of English doesn't have the "th" sound. Instead, the "th" sound is ... "th" sound. Here's what I got so far: the, this, that, these, those, there, they, them, then, than, their, theirs[/nq]
So far as words beginning th are concerned,, that is easy: any dictionary will tell you. So far as words with th in the middle are concerned it's more difficult, but there are certainly plenty: either, neither, father, mother, brother, wheather, weather, further, farther, loathe (but not lo(a)th), writhe, seathe. On the whole words ending in one of these sounds tend to have -th for the hard sound, -the for the soft, and I can't immediately think of any exceptions.
[nq:1]Also, I'd like to compile a finite list of words in which the "th" is pronounced as a solid "t" (if there are any?). For instance, I have my suspicions that the following words are pronounced which a hard t: Thomas Thailand Thai[/nq]
Again, any dicionary that includes proper names should tell you these.
[nq:1]Any help compiling these lists is greatly appreciated.[/nq]
athel

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(Email Removed), Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Email Removed) writes

I'm no expert, but the two different English 'th' sounds still exist in Icelandic, where they are represented by the 'thorn' (hard) and the 'eth' (soft). A quick Google will provide lots of information.

As for words where 'th' is not pronounced 'th', all I can instantly think of are words which are proper nouns or foreign imports. There are many English place names with suffix 'ham' and, where the bit preceeding ends in a 't', the word is often pronounced as 'xxxT-Ham'. For example, 'Feltham' is certainly pronounced 'felt-ham', 'Chatham' is 'chat-ham' etc.

Ian

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On 2008-12-13 11:50:48 +0100, Ian Jackson
[nq:1] I'm no expert, but the two different English 'th' sounds still exist in Icelandic, where they are represented by the 'thorn' (hard) and the 'eth' (soft). ..[/nq]
Also in several other European languages such as Welsh (th and dd respectively), Greek (theta and delta), Spanish as spoken in much of Spain (z, or c before i or e for the hard sound) and any sort of Spanish for the soft sound (d), Albanian also, I think.

athel

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[nq:2]Thanks for the clarification Bill :-). It's funny what watching ... that begin with a "th" that's pronounced as a "t"?[/nq]
[nq:1]If you could keep thyme in a bottle, would you throw it in the Thames?[/nq]
Good examples!

Ian

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(Email Removed), Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Email Removed) writes
[nq:2]Yes, they are: TOM us, TIE, TIE land.[/nq]
[nq:1]Thanks for the clarification Bill :-). It's funny what watching TV as a kid will do to you. Growing up ... have been confirmed! Can anyone think of any more words that begin with a "th" that's pronounced as a "t"?[/nq]
These days, what with all the 'multi-cultural' TV programmes, I would really be surprised if Irish people had any difficulty with the 'correct' English pronunciation of words with 'th' in them. Starting around 1980, I visited Ireland quite frequently for about 20 years. Admittedly it was mainly Cork and Limerick, and only occasionally the Dublin area, but I can't recall any of the people I met and worked with markedly (and naturally) using the Irish 'd' or 't' sound, except when they were deliberately 'putting on the accent' for fun.
Ian

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a side note
.what you call a soft TH many call a voiced TH
.and your hard TH is an unvoiced TH
.vocal cord vibration or the lack of it is what
distinguishes the two sounds
.same with Z and S, J (as in measure) and SH,
and V and F

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Nature, heron stone to be commanded, http://gendo.net must be obeyed. mailto:(Email Removed)

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(Email Removed), Tomás Ó hÉilidhe (Email Removed) writes
[nq:1]On Dec 13, 11:26 pm, Ian Jackson[/nq]
[nq:2]Starting around 1980, I visited Ireland quite frequently for about ... when they were deliberately 'putting on the accent' for fun.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's odd! The only place in Ireland that pronounces a "th" sound is upperclass Dublin. Every other county, along with ... also holidayed in various counties throughout Ireland, for example Waterford, Mayo, Clare, Kerry, and I've never heard the "th" sound.[/nq]
Oh, I'm not claiming I never heard the Irish 'd' and 't', but it certainly wasn't a prominent feature in the speech of those I worked with.
[nq:1]I wonder if you, as a speaker of an English dialect that contains the "th" sound, just didn't notice it was replaced with "t"?[/nq]
Possibly. After a few Guinnesses, Murphys and Jamesons, I expect that my companions lapsed more into the local dialect but, at the same time, I probably became relatively oblivious to their accents.
[nq:1]I've always wondered why Irish people don't pronounce "th" properly, and I only figured out there about a week or ... average native English speaker, but I've definitely noticed that I've to slow down to get the "th" sound out properly.[/nq]
I don't think that the 'th' sound is really used in Irish (or even Scottish) Gaelic (is it?). But if so, why is the 'd' and 't' not a feature of the Scots accent?
[nq:1]There's a similar situation here in the country of Laos. The Lao people are perfectly capable of saying an "R" ... think they keep their tongues a lot wider when speaking (or at least I do when I'm imitating their accent).[/nq]
I often wonder why a lot of absolutely fluent English speakers still retain strong foreign accents. I suppose they get to a stage where their English 'works well enough' for them. Maybe they simply can't hear that they are pronouncing things somewhat incorrectly or with the wrong inflections. However, I did once hear that Maurice Chevalier could speak perfect English, but retained his strong French accent as a theatrical 'trademark'. I'm not sure if this is true or not!

Ian

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[nq:1]The "d" corresponds to the soft "th" sound such as in "there, this, that, they, then, than". The "t" corresponds to the loud "th" sound such as in "think, thermal, thanks, thindle".[/nq]
Phonetically, the "d" sound is made by tapping the tongue against the back of the top row of teeth and vocalizing (moving your vocal chords). The "t" sound is made exactly the same way but without vocalizing.
The "th" sounds are not made this way. In your first example, the tongue is supposed to be placed flatly against the teeth and held tightly (not tapped as in making the "d"), and sound is vocalized. The "th" in the second example is done the same way but without vocalizing.
The secret is that the tongue is placed flatly and held tightly while air is forced through, not tapped against the teeth.

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[nq:1]a side note .what you call a soft TH many call a voiced TH .and your hard TH is an ... what distinguishes the two sounds .same with Z and S, J (as in measure) and SH, and V and F[/nq]
You don't quote anything or say who you're addressing, but for my part I simply repeated the usage of the person who asked the question. It was perfectly obvious what he meant, and insisting that he use the technical terms would have been pointlessly pedantic.

athel

The pronunciation of "th"

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