The possessive case apostrophe 's'

Question

When I was a primary school pupil years ago I was taught adding only an apostrophe to a noun that is plural and ends with a letter 's' or a sound of 's'. I have come across so many now even a noun in singular that ends with an s takes only an apostrophe. Conflicting ideas pops up everywhere. It seems to me the latter is the latest trend. I would like to hear some educated and professional opinions on various usages.

Examples:
Jesus's disciples or Jesus' disciples
Jones's house or Jones' house.
for justice' sake or for justice's sake
Candice' dress or Candice's dress

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

Hello, healer—and welcome to English Forums.

The practice of using only the apostrophe (no additional 's') after singular nouns ending in 's' is still acceptable, but style guides are now tending to restrict that to 'classical' names like Jesus', Socrates' and Moses' and some set phrases like 'for goodness's sake'.

Jesus's disciples or Jesus' disciples-- Both OK.

Jones's house or Jones' house.-- Are you intending a family's house, and their name is Jones? Then it would be the Joneses' house. Using the family name as an adjective (like the Washington Monument) would be simply the Jones house.

for justice' sake or for justice's sake-- Both OK:

Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Bible)
For justice's sake, Publish the legal advice for Iraq war (Guardian headline)

Candice's dress

Healer · Answer

Thanks for your advice.

The word "Jesus'" is all I come across in the bible. To what I can remember I haven't seen "Jesus's" has been used. Do we say "Jesuses" if we do use it?

As to the example of Jones I intended it to be simply someone's name and someone's thing, for example, Douglas' book or Douglas's book. I suppose we would say "douglases" when we use the latter. Am I right? I haven't heard of it though.

Well, that's where I discovered the example of "for justice'sake", in the bible. It seems to me the bible uses all the shortest ways.

As to the example of candice' dress, I have never come across it. I simple extrapolated from the example of "justice' sake". Are you saying that "Candice' dress" is wrong?

By the way, are you also saying the set phrase like "for goodness' sake" is acceptable? Likewise I suppose we say "goodnesses" for "goodness's" if we do use it this way? However I never heard anybody saying "for goodnesses sake"

All in all, when you said that "using only the apostrophe (no additional 's') after singular nouns ending in 's' is still acceptable", it seems to say it is not preferable and not standard or professional though it is acceptable. However with my experience of living in an English speaking environment I never or hardly hear Jesuses, goodnesses or Moseses in the possessive sense.

Mister Micawber · Answer

"Jesuses"-- This means 2 guys named Jesus. It is not possessive.

As to the example of Jones I intended it to be simply someone's name and someone's thing, for example, Douglas' book or Douglas's book. I suppose we would say "douglases" when we use the latter.-- You seem very lost. Jones is normally a family name and Douglas is normally a first name. Which do you wish to examine?

Are you saying that "Candice' dress" is wrong?- Yes, it is wrong.

By the way, are you also saying the set phrase like "for goodness' sake" is acceptable? Likewise I suppose we say "goodnesses" for "goodness's" if we do use it this way? - No. This is part of your same confusion. See 'Jesuses' above.

However with my experience of living in an English speaking environment I never or hardly hear Jesuses, goodnesses or Moseses in the possessive sense.- That's because they aren't. These are your choices: Jesus' cross or Jesus's cross. For modern names, Charles's wife is preferred over Charles' wife.

Healer · Answer

There was some misunderstanding. I apologized for not making myself clear. The following were meant to be phonetic symbols, not words.

Jesuses - > ['d?i:z?s?s]
goodnesses - > ['gudnis?s]

Since you said we could or we should actually have said "Jesus's" and "goodnesses" in spite of the recent trend, I had the other questions.

I had supposed when we say "for goodnesss's sake" we would pronounce "goodness's" as ['gudnis?s] not ['gudnis], wouldn't we?

So is "Jesus's", should we say ['d?i:z?s?s] instead of ['d?i:z?s]?

As to the names I gave for example I was not fussed if they were surnames or first names though the examples might have been inappropriate or misleading. Be they surname or first name I just wanted to be sure when the names ended with a 's' or a sound of 's'. So "Douglas'" or "Douglas's" was just one example. And when we say "Douglas's", do we say ['d?gl?s?s] or ['d?gl?s]?

I thank you for your patience and tolerance.

Mister Micawber · Answer

There was some misunderstanding. I apologized for not making myself clear. The following were meant to be phonetic symbols, not words.Jesuses - > ['d?i:z?s?s] goodnesses - > ['gudnis?s]-- But they are words, so please don't do that again.

you said we could or we should actually have said "Jesus's"- Yes. and "goodnesses"-- No

I had supposed when we say "for goodnesss's sake" we would pronounce "goodness's" asnot ['gudnis], wouldn't we?-- No. it is pronounced ['gudnis] or a reasonable facsimile thereof.

So is "Jesus's", should we say ['d?i:z?s?s] instead of ['d?i:z?s]?-- How you say it is independent of how you decide to write these classical names, I think, as long as it suits custom (which 'for ['gudnis?s] sake;' does not).

As to the names I gave for example I was not fussed if they were surnames or first names though the examples might have been inappropriate or misleading. Be they surname or first name I just wanted to be sure when the names ended with a 's' or a sound of 's'. So "Douglas'" or "Douglas's" was just one example. And when we say "Douglas's", do we say ['d?gl?s?s] or ['d?gl?s]?-- ['d?gl?s?s] - and I've been saying it all my life —he's my brother.

The point about the surname was whether you were trying to talk about one member of the family or the whole family (since sometimes we use the surname alone to refer to male friends). Here is the range:

Douglas Micawber's car = Douglas's car (also still written by some as Douglas' car — but still pronounced ['d?gl?s?s] or the spoken version sounds almost inscutable).
Micawbers' car = the Micawber family's car.
Micawber's car = my car

Healer · Answer

To verify my understanding, can I say in case of "goodnesses" regardless of how we write it we simply pronounce it as ['gudnis] ?

After all it seems there is no hard and fast rules but we should just follow the local customs. To me, as long as they are considered the educated or the best decisions they are fine. I have found that when a lot of people make the same “mistakes” the mistakes become acceptable and canonical like the word “inflammable” being the same as “flammable” in meaning and usage.

Micawbers' car = the Micawber family's car.
Micawber's car = my car
Do you pronounce both “Micawbers'” “Micawber's” the same in the above two examples in spite of the writings being different?
Thanks a lot!

Mister Micawber · Answer

To verify my understanding, can I say in case of "goodnesses" regardless of how we write it we simply pronounce it as ['gudnis] ?-- No, not at all! 'Goodnesses' is a plural, not a possessive, and it is not used in that idiomatic phrase.

After all it seems there is no hard and fast rules but we should just follow the local customs. To me, as long as they are considered the educated or the best decisions they are fine. I have found that when a lot of people make the same “mistakes” the mistakes become acceptable and canonical like the word “inflammable” being the same as “flammable” in meaning and usage.-- That's all very nice, but judging from your previous posts, I'm not sure that you recognize what a lot people are saying.

Micawbers' car = the Micawber family's car. Micawber's car = my car
Do you pronounce both “Micawbers'” “Micawber's” the same in the above two examples in spite of the writings being different?- Yes

Healer · Answer

Oh! Sorry my mistake again. I meant to say to verify my understanding, can I say in case of "goodness's" regardless of how we write it we simply pronounce it as ['gudnis] ?--

Mister Micawber · Answer

I'll wager that folks pronounce it both ways.

Healer · Answer

I thank you for your having putting up with me.  I am just a pain in the **** sometimes.

The possessive case apostrophe 's'

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