The past subjunctive mood

Question

I have a request concerning the terminology of the subjunctive mood. I know what it is and when to use, however, when it comes to the past subjunctive, a great deal of coursebooks start using another term, which is "unreal past". Obviously, this is a very conveniently developed explanation in itself, as unreal stands for improbable situations and past tells us that we should use past tense here. Yet, in many books about grammar (Quirk, Thomson/Martinet, Swan just to mention a few) they say that:
the present subjunctive is be or the infinitive of other verbs
the past subjunctive is were or the past form verb
It is all very well, but 3rd conditional is rarely mentioned in the group of the past subjunctive. Technically the 3rd conditional all the hallmarks of the subjunctive: it is impossible/improbable to happen, and it can be reversed (Had I been there...). All...except one had been is not were, so it is rather a form which some other grammarians call pluperfect subjunctive (what a strange name it is...) or the past perfect subjunctive (if this really exists).
My question: can the 3rd conditional be called the past subjunctive INSTEAD of unreal past? or it is much safer to use the unreal past term, because the past subjunctive (as most serious grammatical books say) is only WERE or the past simple form.

AlpheccaStars · Accepted Answer

Anon;

You are mixing terminologies. "Past subjunctive" is a formal grammatical term for the inflection of a verb.
"Unreal past" is an informal description of the clause that says something that is untrue in the past.
"3rd conditional" is the entire sentence pattern, consisting of two (or more) clauses.

The subjunctive mood is used much more frequently in other languages, as compared to English.

Consider this example:

If I had won the lottery, I would now be living on a tropical island.

had won = past subjunctive verb form
I had won the lottery = unreal past
If I had won the lottery, I would be living on a tropical island. = a sentence in third conditional form

Anonymous · Answer

Thank you for your quick response. This is what I wanted to hear. Anyway, if I mix it, Thomson and Martinet mix it as well

) Of course, they are grammarians, and they can

) But that`s not the point to quarrel.It is commonly mixed in a variety of coursebooks.
The verb in the 3rd conditional sentence that expresses "unreal past" has the form of the past subjunctive. Right? So, to express the "unreal condition" we use the past subjunctive form which is the past form of the verb, and the Past Perfect verb is no exception. Right?

Fivejedjon · Answer

AnonymousThe verb in the 3rd conditional sentence that expresses "unreal past" has the form of the past subjunctive. Right? So, to express the "unreal condition" we use the past subjunctive form which is the past form of the verb, and the Past Perfect verb is no exception. Right?

Well, that depends on how you wish to think of things.

In AS's If I had won the lottery, I would now be living on a tropical island, the 'had once' would have, in the past, used a form of the verb (subjunctive) that was different in form for the normal past perfect indicative, as it does in some languages today. In German, for example, the indicative form of 'had' is 'hatte', and the subjunctive form 'hätte'. As, with only one exception, the subjunctive and the indicative forms of all verbs in English except BE have identical forms, I, personally, consider that there is no point in saying that British English has a subjunctive mood. It is dead.

Exceptions:

The third form of the present simple ends in -s in the indicative mood. There is no ending in the subjunctive. However, over 98% of speakers of British English (my estimate) never use a present subjunctive except in such fossilised expressions as 'Long live the Queen'.

BE has a present subjunctive form 'be' for all persons. However, 98% of speakers of British English (my estimate again) never use it.
BE is the only verb in English that has a recognisable past subjunctive form, 'were' for all persons. While a large minority (my opinion) still use it in the expression 'if I were you', the indicative form 'was' is becoming increasingly accepted. In all other situations when the subjunctive would have been obligatory, for educated speakers at least, it is rarely used.

Important note: I am speaking about British English. the subjunctive is alive and kicking in American English, I believe.

MrT · Answer

Thanks for your post. I think it`s time for me to say why I need this answer (of course I could say it: it`s time I said and that would be the past subjunctive hehe). No matter if it is dead or not, or should be as some claim here, I need the answer because this grammatical issue is included in the syllabus and is commonly used during exams. It is much better for students to understand wish/if only, 2/3 cond. clauses or would rather/sooner with referring them to either to the present or the past. Both have unreal (or maybe impossible when we talk about 3rd cond.) reference expressed by the past subjunctive. For me the past subjunctive mood is just a form expressing unreality, however, when I look into some books of recognised grammarians, not a single one mentions had + past participle as a form of subjunctive (it can be found on the Internet, as everything obviously, eg Wikipedia - "the past perfect subjunctive", "pluperfect subjunctive"). My post/query here is to make it clear, not more complicated. And I would like to read an explanation written by a native speaker, who is a linguist at the same time. I am no talking about the present subjunctive that is rarely used, except formal register. Again:

If I were/be you is definitely the past subjunctive form (2nd cond. expresses unreal situations)
If I had been is indicative here (although expressing an impossible situation): is it also the past subjunctive? (3rd cond. expresses impossible, not just unreal situations)

For me, it is confusing calling "were" (in 2nd or wish) the past subjunctive, and turning to "unreal past" term when talking about 3rd conditional, wish+past perfect, would rather/sooner+S+past perfect etc. - this is what most coursebooks do.

This is a citation from one prof. of English explaining the the subjunctive mood in some newspaper:

"Now so called "second conditional" statements, where we set a condition that is either imposiible or unlikely use the subjunctive in the IF clause and a form of "will" or "shall" in the result clause. Impossible conditions in the past are set using a different structure, the so called "Third Conditional" so need not concern us here."

MrT · Answer

By the way. the sentence

If I had won the lottery, I would be living on a tropical island.

is a mixed conditional sentence (3/2)

Judging from the unreality of the whole action, "had won" is in the past subjunctive in my opinion (if something like that exists)

CalifJim · Answer

Anonymouscan the 3rd conditional be called the past subjunctive INSTEAD of unreal past?

No, but the verb tense in the if-clause can be called the past perfect subjunctive. ('Unreal past' is not really the name of a tense; it's a description of the usage.)

The subjunctive tenses are these four. I'll illustrate with a third-person singular.

Present - he be; he take
Past - he were; he took
Present perfect - he have been; he have taken
Past perfect - he had been; he had taken

See also

CJ

The past subjunctive mood

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