The Past Perfect Question

Question

Can somebody write a complete (and correct) English sentence using past tenses only and the prompts.
Thanks in advance,
Magixo
By the time / he / finish / speak / most / audience / fall asleep / END
Is more than one solution possible?

Yankee · Accepted Answer

Welcome to the site, Magixo.

The usual procedure here is that you give it a try first, and then we'll give you feedback.

Anonymous · Answer

Thank you for your welcome. Well, I would begin simply with the past tense in the by-the-time clause. But to be honest with you, I do not know about the rest.

By the time he finished speaking,...
I somehow feel that the question has something to do with the past perfect tense...

Magixo · Answer

Thank you for the welcome. Well, I would begin simply with the past simple in the by-the-time clause:
By the time he finished speaking....
but I am not sure about the rest. I somehow feel that the question has something to do with the Past Perfect Tense.
Sincerely,
Magixo

CalifJim · Answer

magixoI somehow feel that the question has something to do with the Past Perfect Tense.

Then try putting the rest of the words together using that tense. Then we'll take another look at what you came up with.

CJ

Magixo · Answer

OK. Here's how I would make this sentence:

By the time he finished speaking, most of the audience had fallen asleep.

Can I have your comments, please.
Magixo

CalifJim · Answer

magixoOK. Here's how I would make this sentence:

By the time he finished speaking, most of the audience had fallen asleep.

Can I have your comments, please.
Magixo

Beautiful! That's correct just as you wrote it.

CJ

Yankee · Answer

[Y]
Perfect.

The meaning of the sentence is this:
Most of the audience fell asleep no later than the time at which he finished speaking -- i.e. before (not after) he finished.

Magixo · Answer

I mean, that's how I would express the idea contained in:
By the time / he / finish / speak / most / audience / fall asleep //

But the thing that bothers me is my Headway Upper-Intermediate course which I am supposed to follow. It suggests the following:

By the time he had finished speaking, most of the audience had fallen aspleep.

Shall I be wrong if I teach my students to express the above idea without the Past Perfect in the by-the-time clause?

Sincerely,
Magixo

Philip · Answer

I believe you offered a sentence and were told that it is correct:

By the time he finished speaking, most of the audience had fallen asleep. The past perfect in by the time is incorrect.

Yankee · Answer

Hi Magixo

My comments refer to your specific sentence:

I suppose if someone decided to get unnecessarily fussy, you might hear them use "had finished" in order to indicate that they are excluding anybody who might have fallen asleep at the very same moment that "he" uttered the last word of his final sentence.

"Had finished" might turn up as part of a narrative (about the past) in which this particular pair of past events serve only/primarily as background information -- i.e. to set the stage before the author gets to the main part of the story he wants to tell.

I'm familiar with the Headway series because I've used it in courses in the past. I haven't used it in quite a long time, however, so I don't have a copy handy. Does your book present this sentence in a unit (or part of a unit) that specifically covers something called "narrative tenses"?

To answer your last question, it is correct to teach your students the structure "By the time he finished speaking, most of the audience had fallen asleep." To me, however, your sentence isn't the best example for a "by the time he had done" usage. Using "by the time he had finished speaking, most of the audience had fallen asleep" as a free-standing sentence seems to suggest that people only fell asleep well before "he" finished, and that not one single person in the group called "most of the audience" fell asleep at or very near the end of his speech. And if that is the intended meaning, then you'd probably be better off simply saying that "most of the audience fell asleep while he was speaking".

That's my two cents.

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