The + nationality

Question

Hi,On a website, a Japanese who seems to be well versed in English says that "the + nationality" can show the speaker's indifferent attitude towards the people of that nationality.For example, if I (Japanese) talked to people from other countries and they said that the Japanese are 'blah-blah-blah', they would be rude to me (regardless of what sentence 'blah-blah-blah' above is). Is it correct?In her opinion, in that case they should say "Japanese are 'blah-blah-blah."Thanks in advance!

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

A ridiculous 'rule'.  Not at all.  Respect, disrespect or indifference will be shown non-linguistically-- with gesture, facial expression, or tone of voice.  The presence or absence of the article is irrelevant.

Anonymous · Answer

Hi,

Thank you for your reply. I got it.

I get a feel that "Japanese are blah-blah-blah" can convey an unclear message (because we might think of "Japanese," without a definite artcle, as "the Japanese language".)

What do you think about it?

Mister Micawber · Answer

No, I don't think that is the case. Context must at the very least reveal whether we are speaking of the people, the language, or the noodles.

In this situation, the definite article works just as it does in other situations: it refers to either (1) specific Japanese people in the context or (2) Japanese people previously mentioned in the context. It is merely a discourse marker; it does not carry any further semantic message.

Anonymous · Answer

Hi,

Thanks!! But I am still confused... Please let me organize all the things.

In my understanding so far,

(A) whether or not " -ese" words (Japanese, Chinese, Tiwanese, Vietnamese, etc.) accompany definite articles depends on the context ("the" will be inserted in the cases of (1) and (2) you mentioned. Other than those cases, "the" is not likely to be placed.).

(B) the same applies to "-ns" words and "-ers" words (Americans, Germans, Scandinavians, Australians, Italians, Arabians, Russians, New Zealanders, etc.)

(C) meanwhile, "- h" words (French, Spanish, Irish, British, Dutch) always accompany definite articles.

(D) other exceptions might include "the Arabs" and "the Brits."

If there are any corrections, could you let me know?

Mister Micawber · Answer

(A) ... Other than those cases, "the" is not likely to be placed.).

I did not say that. Nor did I consider or mention B, C or D. B, I would say offhand, is true. C, I would say offhand, follows the same guidelines where they refer to a nationality in the same way (if any of them do-- 'French' certainly does not refer to a singular Frenchman, where 'Japanese' does, for instance). But for example: According to the last opinion poll, 47 % of Irish are always uncertain. D seems true.

Cool Breeze · Answer

I'll **** in if I may, Anon and MrM. As I'm a nonnative speaker of English, I think I have a clue as to what causes your problem, Anon. English is a highly illogical language but there often is at least somelogic behind the seeming maze.

It is possible to place the before an adjective and the article makes the adjective a plural noun if the reference is to people:

The young like that kind of music. = Young people like that kind of music.

Logically, you can put the before an adjective that denotes a nationality and the end result is the same:

The Japanese are innovative. = Japanese people are...

Other similar examples of the + adjective: the French, the Irish, the Dutch, the Portuguese etc.

This combination isn't always possible, though. It is applicable if the "nation" adjective ends in ch, ese or sh, but you cannot say: *The Italian like pizza. You have to use a plural noun formed with an s: Italians like pizza. There's no need for the in this case because an Italian behaves grammatically like any common noun such as a boy: Boys like girls.

In English, what sounds glood is often the rule and therefore logic and grammatical rules sometimes matter very little. There are countless cases in which the is used before expressions like American people even though the reference is notto an aforementioned group. We just have to live with it!

As Mr M has mentioned, there are cases in which the may be omitted before a word like Irish these days. When I was young in the Middle Ages, it was generally considered a mistake to say: Forty percent of Irish like Guinness. In those days you had to say: Fory percent of Irish people like Guinness. This makes sense as Irish is actually an adjective, and therefore forty percent of Irish is ungrammatical just as forty percent of old is ungrammatical. However, enough people have used words like Irish ungrammatically for long enough for such usage to become idiomatic.

Whenever the adjective and the noun denoting a citizen of a country are different, few proplems should arise:

Swedish food is tasty. Swedes like it.
Spanish music is rhythmic. Spaniards like it.
French wine is expensive. Frenchmen buy it nonetheless.

Of course you can also say: Swedish people, Spanish people, French people. In fact, words such as Frenchmen, Englishmen, Irishmen etc. may have become a little old-fashioned and fallen out of use to some extent. You don't often see Englishwomen these days, but even that exists!

I'm not sure I have made things at all easier for you. I think I'm getting more confused myself and therefore I'm going to stop now! Have one of these

with me! It may not sort out nationalities for you but it'll quench your thirst.

CB

Anonymous · Answer

Hi,

Thank you for answering my additional question and giving me suggestions about B to D cases.

Your comment is helpful!!

Anonymous · Answer

Hi CB,

I have just read your post, and thank you for the informative comment!!

>The young like that kind of music. = Young people like that kind of music.

>Logically, you can put the before an adjective that denotes a nationality and the end result is the same:

>The Japanese are innovative. = Japanese people are...

Your explanation is great! I see what you has mentioned, and got it!!

Also, your comment about Irish is reasonable and solved my question.

I admire your English proficiency and teaching skills:)

Thank you very much!

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