"the late"

Question

I have an instinctive feeling that the euphemism "the late" (referring to someone who's dead) implies that the death is a fairly recent occurrence. Is that correct? Or is it just my take on the expression?

=20
Bob

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I have an instinctive feeling that the euphemism "the late" (referring to someone who's dead) implies that the death is a fairly recent occurrence. Is that correct? Or is it just my take on the expression?[/nq]
Well, it's normally used only when it's fairly recent. There is little point in saying the late Abraham Lincoln, because if you don't already know he's dead, you're too stupid to talk to.

Although it might be a clue that an Abe Lincoln other than the president is being talked about.
If you don't read the news one day, it's easy not to know that someone is dead.

Posters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore 26 years

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I have an instinctive feeling that the euphemism "the late" ... correct? Or is it just my take on the expression?[/nq]
[nq:1]Well, it's normally used only when it's fairly recent. =A0There is little point in saying the late Abraham Lincoln, because ... talk to. Although it might be a clue that an Abe Lincoln other than the president is being talked about.[/nq]
"The late" does have a practical use. A man who is named John Jones, Jr. often drops the "Jr." upon the death of John Jones. So "John Jones and John Jones Jr." becomes "the late John Jones and John Jones".
GFH

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Well, it's normally used only when it's fairly recent. There is little point in saying the late Abraham Lincoln, because if you don't already know he's dead, you're too stupid to talk to. Although it might be a clue that an Abe Lincoln other than the president is being talked about.[/nq]
[nq:1]"The late" does have a practical use. A man who is named John Jones, Jr. often drops the "Jr." upon the death of John Jones. So "John Jones and John Jones Jr." becomes "the late John Jones and John Jones".[/nq]
And does John Jones III become John Jones Jr?
Doesn't this cause loads of problems for mortgages, car loans, deeds, contracts, criminal charges, law suits, affidavits, witness testimony etc? For example, no one will know if an affidavit that refers to one of them uses the ranking at the time the affidavit was made, the name that the person making the statement was used all his life, was using at the time, who may not have known about the death of his father, or may not have felt such a death changed the other person's name, etc. ??
[nq:1]GFH[/nq]
Posters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore 26 years

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]And does John Jones III become John Jones Jr?[/nq]
Posters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore 26 years
You are Methusulah and I claim my 5 shekels

(¯`·. ®óñ© © ²°¹° .·´¯)

Usenet · Answer

Reading from
[nq:2]I have an instinctive feeling that the euphemism "the late" ... correct? Or is it just my take on the expression?[/nq]
[nq:1]Well, it's normally used only when it's fairly recent. There is little point in saying the late Abraham Lincoln, because ... talk to. Although it might be a clue that an Abe Lincoln other than the president is being talked about.[/nq]Do people actually name their kids like that? I mean, if someone is ignorant, I can understand. But if someone with the last name of Lincoln names their kid Abraham, it seems a bit pretentious if they're aware that one of the most commonly-known presidents had that name. It's not that I think Abraham Lincoln was a "great man"; I wasn't alive in that time to make that judgment for myself. I do see that the history books write about the man as if he was incapable of making mistakes, and people talk about him as if he should be revered.

I don't think the name should be trademarked or anything. I just know the perception of many seems to be that if your last name is Presley, you'd be best not to name your kid Elvis. Maybe I'm projecting my own view and assuming others share it.

Damaeus

Usenet · Answer

Reading from
[nq:1]"The late" does have a practical use. A man who is named John Jones, Jr. often drops the "Jr." upon the death of John Jones. So "John Jones and John Jones Jr." becomes "the late John Jones and John Jones".[/nq]
Often? Maybe they do sometimes, if they don't know any better. My name has been changed three times in my life, so far. I was born with one name, and it was changed when I was 2 years old and adopted into a family whose head of household made me a "Jr." of himself. I later changed my name to something of my own choosing since I thought his name sucked I didn't like any of them for myself. No offense to him. He likes his name. But had I kept the name my adoptive parents gave me, I would have never dropped the "Jr." off my name.
Damaeus

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Well, it's normally used only when it's fairly recent. There ... Abe Lincoln other than the president is being talked about.[/nq]
[nq:1]Do people actually name their kids like that? I mean, if someone is ignorant, I can understand. But if someone ... be best not to name your kid Elvis. Maybe I'm projecting my own view and assuming others share it. Damaeus[/nq]
I've never come across anyone named Abe Lincoln, other than the famous one, and I'm not saying there are any. It was just an example.

But there are 1) people who are famous but not to everyone.
2) people who are famous after they are 20 or after they are 60, butchildren in other families are given the same name before the famous ones become famous.

Posters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore 26 years

Usenet · Answer

Reading from
[nq:1]But there are 1) people who are famous but not to everyone. 2) people who are famous after they are 20 or after they are 60, but children in other families are given the same name before the famous ones become famous.[/nq]
Yeah, those I understand. There are many "Michael Jacksons" in the world, and some of them are even whiter than the famous one.

Damaeus

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]And does John Jones III become John Jones Jr?[/nq]
Wikipedia tells us possibly more than many want to know:
There is no hard-and-fast rule over what happens to suffixes when the most senior of the name dies: whether the men retain their titles, or they all "move up" one. Neither tradition nor etiquette provides a definitive answer (etiquette expert Judith Martin, for example, believes they should all move up, but most agree that this is up to the individual families). Upon the death of John Smith Sr., his son, John Smith, Jr. may decide to style himself John Smith Sr.

(causing confusion if his widowed mother and his wife both use the formal style Mrs. John Smith, Sr., and necessitating that his son and grandson change their titles as well) or he may remain John Smith, Jr. for the rest of his lifetime. One effect of moving up one is that it eliminates the extension of Roman numerals over the generations: i.e., a John Smith III, IV, and V. A disadvantage is that it may cause confusion with respect to birth certificates, credit cards, and the like.

In practice it is quite uncommon for families to go beyond "III" in naming children, although there are notable exceptions; the legal name of Tom Cruise, for instance, is actually Thomas Cruise Mapother IV, and the oldest sons of U.S. Senator Jay Rockefeller (legal name John Davison Rockefeller IV) and former Major League Baseball pitcher Orel Hershiser both have "IV" as their suffix. Former boxer George Foreman named his five sons after himself: George Edward Foreman II through VI.In cases where a child is given the same name as a relative who is not the child's mother or father, it is considered correct to give the child a numerical suffix. For example, a child named John William Scott, after his uncle John William Scott, would properly be considered John William Scott II, as opposed to "Junior." Junior is not used because, in this example, John William Scott is not the child of John William Scott, senior. If John William Scott II were to have a son, he could then be named John William Scott III or John William Scott, Jr., depending upon the family.

While it is not technically the social norm to use "II" in place of "junior" for children born directly to a same named parent, there is no social rule against the usage of "II" instead of "junior" for a same named child. Often, II is used by families who want to avoid having their children referred to as "junior" as a nickname.

I agree with the Wikipedian who remarked on the "Discussion" page that it's a hopeless mess.

Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]And does John Jones III become John Jones Jr?[/nq]
[nq:1]Wikipedia tells us possibly more than many want to know: There is no hard-and-fast rule over what happens to suffixes ... A disadvantage is that it may cause confusion with respect to birth certificates, credit cards, and the like. In practice[/nq]
I'm glad others have noticed these problems. The post I replied to was not the first thing I've read about this, but it was the first place I could ask questions.
[nq:1]it is quite uncommon for families to go beyond "III" in naming children, although there are notable exceptions; the legal ... II were to have a son, he could then be named John William Scott III or John William Scott, Jr.,[/nq]
Being Jr. after a father who is II would drive a lot of people and onlookers bananas.
[nq:1]depending upon the family. While it is not technically the social norm to use "II" in place of "junior" for ... Often, II is used by families who want to avoid having their children referred to as "junior" as a nickname.[/nq]
Like Jim Anderson's son on Father Knows Best. However, didn't Junior go on to invent the window?
[nq:1]I agree with the Wikipedian who remarked on the "Discussion" page that it's a hopeless mess.[/nq]
Indeed. Thanks.

Posters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore 26 years

"the late"

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