The inverse arrangement when using "as" as a conjunction

Question

I have not quite understood this use and didn't bother to until I had used it recently in an essay. It didn't get marked for grammatical error (since that's not part of the grading criteria), but I have a feeling that I didn't use it right. Here's the sentence,

This mosaic, as with most other mosaics, reliefs, paintings found in Byzantine Dynasty and Late Roman Empire periods, abandons all conventions that define three dimensional composition.

Is "with" used correctly? or should it be "do" to be in agreement with the verb "abandon"? When would you use "with"? Could you give an example? Thanks in advance.

Raen

Mr Wordy · Accepted Answer

This kind of use of "with" is not that uncommon, and probably would not be marked as an error, but to me it seems a bit loose and vague -- as if the author couldn't quite be bothered to find the right words (no offence!).

You can say:

"This mosaic, like most other mosaics, reliefs and paintings found in Byzantine Dynasty and Late Roman Empire periods, abandons all conventions that define three-dimensional composition."

Are you suggesting that mosaics and paintings are "three-dimensional" compositions, or ought to be compared to such? I can't quite see what you mean by that.

CalifJim · Answer

RaenIs "with" used correctly?

It seems all right to me, although I think I understand your dissatisfaction with it. The long passage that precedes the verb more or less disguises the problem, if there is one, so that the sentence as a whole reads nicely as long as it is not subjected to a detailed analysis.

A much simpler sentence may be needed to show the oddity:

The photo, as with the painting, shows the prince dressed in black.

It seems to me that another phrasing is needed.

The photo, as well as the painting, shows the prince dressed in black.

The photo shows the prince dressed in black, as is also the case with the painting.
The photo shows the prince dressed in black, which is also true of the painting.
The photo shows the prince dressed in black, as does the painting.

I don't find "do" in your original sentence very satisfactory either. Maybe if you placed the information about the other mosaics at the end, it might work.

Others may have better suggestions.

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

Mr Wordy"three-dimensional"

The reference is to the period when perspective was used. Byzantine and Roman paintings were created before this and would not have used perspective.

CJ

Raen · Answer

as if the author couldn't quite be bothered to find the right words (no offence!).

In nother word, it has something to do with the size of the author's vocabulary, haha. No, I don't take offence when people comment on my English. I always manage to find the humor in it though.

Are you suggesting that mosaics and paintings are "three-dimensional" compositions, or ought to be compared to such? I can't quite see what you mean by that.

I'm suggesting that this particular mosaic, which is the focus of my essay, was like most other mosaics created during Late Roman Empire and Byzantine Dynasty periods when arstistic style had evolved from dazzling rendition of the natural world called Naturalism/Realism that prevailed during High Classical period in Greece and Early and Middle Roman empire to a dumbfounding (which I find disappointing) simplification of forms called abstract presentation. So what I tried to do was to focus the featured piece and highlight its qualities, but at the same acknowledge that the qualities were commonplace for artworks of that period.

So back to my original question, "as with" is acceptable while "as do" is no better. Is that right?

Mr Wordy · Answer

CalifJimThe reference is to the period when perspective was used. Byzantine and Roman paintings were created before this and would not have used perspective.

That doesn't seem quite right with "abandons all conventions".

Mr Wordy · Answer

RaenSo back to my original question, "as with" is acceptable while "as do" is no better. Is that right?

"as do" is not technically incorrect, but in my opinion it is stylistically awkward in this sentence. I still prefer my suggestion of "like".

Raen · Answer

Thank you CJ.

I just want to play with your examples a little, just to help illustrate why I was asking.

The photo shows the prince dressed in black, as is also the case with the painting.

This may make the sentence sound a bit wierd, but using it as a tool, would this work?

The photo shows the prince dressed in black, as does the painting.

It is clear to the readers that the painting also shows "the prince dressed in black"? How about,

The photo show the prince dressed in balck, as with the painting.

In this case, it is basically the same structure of the inverse arrangement using "as" that I used in my essay, only simpler.

Raen · Answer

Mr Wordy
CalifJimThe reference is to the period when perspective was used. Byzantine and Roman paintings were created before this and would not have used perspective.
That doesn't seem quite right with "abandons all conventions".

It's possible that whoever created the said mosaic may not have been aware of the conventions, or common rules/techniques, employed in pieces from previous periods that create an illusion of space on a 2-dimensaionl plane (conventions include diminution, overlapping, shadowing, atmospheric perspective, linear perspective etc.) Or you can even say that artists who did create such illusion may have not been aware of using these conventions since these are the terms later art historians use when making a formal (of forms) analysis of a artwork. But 3-dimensional illusion they did create. But this later piece (mosaic) gives no such evidence of spacial depth, "abadoning" what was present in works from previous periods.

CalifJim · Answer

Mr Wordy
CalifJimThe reference is to the period when perspective was used. Byzantine and Roman paintings were created before this and would not have used perspective.
That doesn't seem quite right with "abandons all conventions".

Zing! You got me there!

CJ

The inverse arrangement when using "as" as a conjunction

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