The definite article and plurals

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I think my original message did not go through, so I will try again (if this ends up being double-posted, I am sorry!).________________________Teachers,Could you please help explain to me the definite article with plural nouns. From what I've studied, these are correct either with 'the' or without:In our class, he was often popular with (the) girls.At our school, (the) boys are required to wear uniforms.At our school, (the) teachers are demanding.Welcome to our city. (The) women are very nice here.In our country (the) men here are courageous and the women nice.Maybe you noticed that I moved from a very small group to a very large one. Does the size of the group determine whether the definite article is used or not? I ask because it seems wrong to say: In our house, women cook and men do the dishes without the definite article. Does size matter then?And here is the specific example I wonder about:The troops took over our city in June. They had a plan for the city's population. (The) men would be made to work on the fields, (the) women and children would do lighter work.I think either is okay, but I decided to avoid the definite article. What do you think?? Please help me. I really appreciate your help.Noz

Noz · Accepted Answer

Moderators, if no one can answer my question. could you please delete it completely? Thank you.

Philip · Answer

You have posted a rather complex question.  It sometimes takes a while for a person who feels qualified to answer it to get to it.  Have patience.

Fivejedjon · Answer

There seems to be something in what you suggest. It certainly appears that the smaller the group, the more likely the speaker is to thing of the sub-group as a defined group - and use the definite article.

If you are right, then I think we can say only that it is a tendency, not a firm rule.

Noz · Answer

fivejedjonThere seems to be something in what you suggest. It certainly appears that the smaller the group, the more likely the speaker is to thing of the sub-group as a defined group - and use the definite article.If you are right, then I think we can say only that it is a tendency, not a firm rule.

Thank you, Fivejedjon! So I can say both:
In our class, he was popular with the girls.
In our class, he was popular with girls.

You'd accept both as correct, right?

And in my example:
The troops took over our city in June. They had a plan for the city's population. (The) men would be made to work on the fields, (the) women and (the) children would do lighter work.

Both are fine as well, as well, right?

Fivejedjon · Answer

In your first example, I's use 'the'. As you have mention 'in our class', you are likely to be referring only to the girls in the class. I wouldn't say that the absence of 'the' was incorrect, but I think it's unlikely.

In the second, I don't think the difference between the two is significant.

Noz · Answer

fivejedjonIn your first example, I's use 'the'. As you have mention 'in our class', you are likely to be referring only to the girls in the class. I wouldn't say that the absence of 'the' was incorrect, but I think it's unlikely.In the second, I don't think the difference between the two is significant.

Thank you. That's just what I don't understand. In the first example I am referring only to the girls in the class. But in my second example I am only referring to the men/women/children in the town, so no article should also be very likely.

Maybe there is another theory.
In our class he was popular with girls. Some or many girls, it's not specific.
In our class he was popular with girls. With all the girls in the class, or maybe most of them.

And another theory:
No article before a plural noun may mean 'some' or 'any'. So:
In our family the women cook. The women that are there.
In our family women cook. Any women who may be found in our family.

What do you think? Crazy? Or maybe I have a point?

Fivejedjon · Answer

NozThank you. That's just what I don't understand. In the first example I am referring only to the girls in the class. But in my second example I am only referring to the men/women/children in the town, so no article should also be very likely.

This has to do with your original idea. The larger the group, the more likely we are not to think that defining the subgroup is important.

There is a difference between

He was unpopular in our class because he behave inappropriately to girls.
He was unpopular in our class because he behaved inappropriately to the girls.

The small size of a normal class makes the defined group of the girls (in our class) significantly different from girls in general.

A city is large enough for for the undefined men to be accepted as all men in the city.

Noz · Answer

fivejedjonThis has to do with your original idea. The larger the group, the more likely we are not to think that defining the subgroup is important.

Thank you. So size does matter!

Thank you, that's very instructive.

Anonymous · Answer

NozThank you. So size does matter!

But how do you determine the size? A city is too big. A classroom is too small. What about a university or school?

I was taught:
He liked the girls in our class.
As in "all girls in the class."
He went out with girls from our class.
As in "with some of the girls."

Anonymous · Answer

Noz(The) men would be made to work on the fields,

(The) men would be made to work in the fields,

The definite article and plurals

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