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Usenet Posted 21 years ago
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The [Correct] Teaching of English
As a student of Language and Linguistics, I find all of the discussions here to be of great interest, (usually). ;-0)>
I came across this while doing some research and wondered what everyone might think about it.
You Can't Write Writing
by Wendell Johnson, Ph.D.(1906-1965)
(Late) Associate Professor of Psychology and Speech Pathology, University of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa
(for whom the University's Speech and Hearing Center is now named)
beginning of excerpt The point of view which I have to present with regard to this problem has gradually developed during the decade that I have spent, sitting near the end of the educational conveyer belt, helping to put certain finishing touches on the human products of the scholastic mill. This is a way of saying that my experience has been chiefly with graduate students. When they arrive in the graduate college they have had, as a minimum, sixteen years of formal education.
During practically every one of those sixteen (or more) years they have undergone some kind of training specifically designed to enhance their skill in the use of the English language. In spite of this, there falls upon me, as upon other directors of Masters' and Doctors' dissertations, the task of teaching graduate students how to write clear and meaningful and adequately organized English.What are the linguistic shortcomings that the teachers of English seem unable to correct? Or do they in some measure nurture them? First of all, it is to be made clear that grammatical errors are not particularly serious. Whether or not they find anyone to "talk it to," the majority of graduate students have been taught most of the rudiments of "correct" English. In fact, it appears that the teachers of English teach English so poorly largely because they teach grammar so well.
They seem to confuse or identify the teaching of grammar with the teaching of writing. In any event, what they have failed to teach my graduate students about writing is not grammar. It is skill in achieving factually meaningful statements, and skill in organizing statements into an order consistent with the purposes for which the statements are made. The students have not been taught how adequately to achieve either precision or systematic arrangement in the written representation of facts.
This can be stated in another and more significant way by saying that they have not been taught how to use language for the purpose of making highly reliable maps of the terrain of experience.
end of excerpt
You might be interested in more about Wendell Johnson from a speech made by his son.
http://www.uiowa.edu/~cyberlaw/rcntpubl/korzyb.html
The next meetings of the Heinlein Readers Group
will be Thursday 3/24/2005 @ 9:00 P.M. EST
and Saturday 3/26/05 @ 5:00 P.M. EST
The topic for these discussions will be:
"Your Least Favorite Heinlein work"
See: http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html
I came across this while doing some research and wondered what everyone might think about it.
You Can't Write Writing
by Wendell Johnson, Ph.D.(1906-1965)
(Late) Associate Professor of Psychology and Speech Pathology, University of Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa
(for whom the University's Speech and Hearing Center is now named)
beginning of excerpt The point of view which I have to present with regard to this problem has gradually developed during the decade that I have spent, sitting near the end of the educational conveyer belt, helping to put certain finishing touches on the human products of the scholastic mill. This is a way of saying that my experience has been chiefly with graduate students. When they arrive in the graduate college they have had, as a minimum, sixteen years of formal education.
During practically every one of those sixteen (or more) years they have undergone some kind of training specifically designed to enhance their skill in the use of the English language. In spite of this, there falls upon me, as upon other directors of Masters' and Doctors' dissertations, the task of teaching graduate students how to write clear and meaningful and adequately organized English.What are the linguistic shortcomings that the teachers of English seem unable to correct? Or do they in some measure nurture them? First of all, it is to be made clear that grammatical errors are not particularly serious. Whether or not they find anyone to "talk it to," the majority of graduate students have been taught most of the rudiments of "correct" English. In fact, it appears that the teachers of English teach English so poorly largely because they teach grammar so well.
They seem to confuse or identify the teaching of grammar with the teaching of writing. In any event, what they have failed to teach my graduate students about writing is not grammar. It is skill in achieving factually meaningful statements, and skill in organizing statements into an order consistent with the purposes for which the statements are made. The students have not been taught how adequately to achieve either precision or systematic arrangement in the written representation of facts.
This can be stated in another and more significant way by saying that they have not been taught how to use language for the purpose of making highly reliable maps of the terrain of experience.
end of excerpt
You might be interested in more about Wendell Johnson from a speech made by his son.
http://www.uiowa.edu/~cyberlaw/rcntpubl/korzyb.html
The next meetings of the Heinlein Readers Group
will be Thursday 3/24/2005 @ 9:00 P.M. EST
and Saturday 3/26/05 @ 5:00 P.M. EST
The topic for these discussions will be:
"Your Least Favorite Heinlein work"
See: http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html
Top answer
[nq:1]As a student of Language and Linguistics, I find all of the discussions here to be of great interest, (usually). ;-0)>[/nq] I get it: you have a goatee, are troubled with snoring, and have to sleep with one eye open because you live in a bad area. ) [nq:1]I came across this while doing some research and wondered what everyone might think about it.
- [nq:1]As a student of Language and Linguistics, I find all of the discussions here to be of great interest, (usually).
- ;-0)>[/nq] I get it: you have a goatee, are troubled with snoring, and have to sleep with one eye open because you live in a bad area.
- ) [nq:1]I came across this while doing some research and wondered what everyone might think about it.
- html You ...
- [/nq] First thoughts: (Well, with a leaden example like that, what chance does a youngster have?
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47 Answers
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[nq:1]As a student of Language and Linguistics, I find all of the discussions here to be of great interest, (usually). ;-0)>[/nq]
I get it: you have a goatee, are troubled with snoring, and have to sleep with one eye open because you live in a bad area. (Sorry!)
[nq:1]I came across this while doing some research and wondered what everyone might think about it. From:
I get it: you have a goatee, are troubled with snoring, and have to sleep with one eye open because you live in a bad area. (Sorry!)
[nq:1]I came across this while doing some research and wondered what everyone might think about it. From:
00
[nq:2]As a student of Language and Linguistics, I find all of the discussions here to be of great interest, (usually). ;-0)>[/nq]
[nq:1]I get it: you have a goatee, are troubled with snoring, and have to sleep with one eye open because you live in a bad area. (Sorry!)[/nq]
Hah!
[nq:2]I came across this while doing some research and wondered ...
[nq:1]I get it: you have a goatee, are troubled with snoring, and have to sleep with one eye open because you live in a bad area. (Sorry!)[/nq]
Hah!
[nq:2]I came across this while doing some research and wondered ...
00
[nq:2]First thoughts: (Well, with a leaden example like that, what chance does ayoungster have? And, while I'm at it,[/nq]
[nq:1]Do you really mean 'leaden' or 'lead-in'? If 'leaden' then is it a metaphor for something?[/nq]
I meant "leaden". Perhaps it's out of use over there, but it survives Otherpondly: "made of lead", like "woollen", "wooden", but always or virtually always in a metaph
[nq:1]Do you really mean 'leaden' or 'lead-in'? If 'leaden' then is it a metaphor for something?[/nq]
I meant "leaden". Perhaps it's out of use over there, but it survives Otherpondly: "made of lead", like "woollen", "wooden", but always or virtually always in a metaph
00
[nq:1]As a student of Language and Linguistics, I find all of the discussionshere to be of great interest, (usually). ;-0)> ... they have notbeen taught how to use language for the purpose of making highly reliable mapsof the terrain of experience.[/nq]
All the way up the chain from high school to graduate school one hears teachers complaining that their students can't write. What's going w
All the way up the chain from high school to graduate school one hears teachers complaining that their students can't write. What's going w
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(snip)
[nq:1]You and Mike agree that "The other thing is that young people don't read as much as we did: little ... literature is big business, and many children who wouldn't otherwise have read are doing so "thanks to" computers and cellphones.[/nq]
I think a valid question is when do they stop reading? Many lose interest when they hit the upper grades.
David Wright Sr.
[nq:1]You and Mike agree that "The other thing is that young people don't read as much as we did: little ... literature is big business, and many children who wouldn't otherwise have read are doing so "thanks to" computers and cellphones.[/nq]
I think a valid question is when do they stop reading? Many lose interest when they hit the upper grades.
David Wright Sr.
00
[nq:2]Do you really mean 'leaden' or 'lead-in'? If 'leaden' then is it a metaphor for something?[/nq]
[nq:1]I meant "leaden". Perhaps it's out of use over there, but it survives Otherpondly: "made of lead", like "woollen", "wooden", but always or virtually always in a metaphorical sense. In this case opposite of "light" and "bright", of course.[/nq]
Ok, then I don't get the point.
[nq:
[nq:1]I meant "leaden". Perhaps it's out of use over there, but it survives Otherpondly: "made of lead", like "woollen", "wooden", but always or virtually always in a metaphorical sense. In this case opposite of "light" and "bright", of course.[/nq]
Ok, then I don't get the point.
[nq:
00
(snip)
[nq:1]Yes, indeed, experiences are unique, but the 'real world' is the same for everyone. Everyone, however, abstracts a unique picture ... They are mapping their internal experience to abstracted aspects of that 'real world' through their senses, and instrumentedly augmented senses.[/nq]
Sorry, that should be 'instrumentally' augmented senses.
David Wright Sr.
Have you
[nq:1]Yes, indeed, experiences are unique, but the 'real world' is the same for everyone. Everyone, however, abstracts a unique picture ... They are mapping their internal experience to abstracted aspects of that 'real world' through their senses, and instrumentedly augmented senses.[/nq]
Sorry, that should be 'instrumentally' augmented senses.
David Wright Sr.
Have you
00
[nq:2]I meant "leaden". Perhaps it's out of use over there, ... In this case opposite of "light" and "bright", of course.[/nq]
[nq:1]Ok, then I don't get the point.[/nq]
Ever heard the old cliche about going over like a lead balloon? The language adverted to is as lively as if it was made of lead. Indeed, you can look upon "leaden" as an antonym of "lively." If even that doesn't work, try
[nq:1]Ok, then I don't get the point.[/nq]
Ever heard the old cliche about going over like a lead balloon? The language adverted to is as lively as if it was made of lead. Indeed, you can look upon "leaden" as an antonym of "lively." If even that doesn't work, try
00
Mike Lyle turpitued:
[nq:1]I worry, too, about multi-choice testing: it has its place, but doesn't promote self-expression.[/nq]
By coincidence I've just been proof-reading a multiple-choice quiz to be given to a class of mine next week. I dislike multiple-choice testing, not only for the reason that you give, but also because it's possible to pass such tests without much knowledge of the
[nq:1]I worry, too, about multi-choice testing: it has its place, but doesn't promote self-expression.[/nq]
By coincidence I've just been proof-reading a multiple-choice quiz to be given to a class of mine next week. I dislike multiple-choice testing, not only for the reason that you give, but also because it's possible to pass such tests without much knowledge of the
00
[nq:1](snip)[/nq]
[nq:2]You and Mike agree that "The other thing is that ... have read are doing so "thanks to" computers and cellphones.[/nq]
[nq:1]I think a valid question is when do they stop reading?[/nq]
When they get their first video game.
dg (domain=ccwebster)
[nq:2]You and Mike agree that "The other thing is that ... have read are doing so "thanks to" computers and cellphones.[/nq]
[nq:1]I think a valid question is when do they stop reading?[/nq]
When they get their first video game.
dg (domain=ccwebster)
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