Tense simplification in subordinate clauses

Question

1) "It would have been kind to give the source, so that this was clear to people."
2) "It would have been kind to give the source, so that this would be clear to people."

Can I use all the two examples above?
I'd like to know what case the tense simplification is imperative in? - for example, only when I use adverbial subordinate clauses of time and condition, is the tense simplification imperative?

Thank you in advance for your help.

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

park sang joonCan I use ~~all the two~~ both examples above?

(We never use "all two" or "all the two". We always use "both" instead.)

park sang joonwhat case the tense simplification is imperative in

It's never imperative as far as I know.

park sang joononly when I use adverbial subordinate clauses of time and condition, is the tense simplification imperative?

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you still talking about your two examples, or is this a different question?

CJ

Park sang joon · Answer

Thank you, Mr.Jim, for your sharing your valuable knowledge.

(We never use "all two" or "all the two". We always use "both" instead.)

I see; I will have to study about the usage a little more.

It's never imperative as far as I know.

I see; thank you very much for your valuable information.
Then, can I use #1 and #2 at will?

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you still talking about your two examples, or is this a different question?

I have used the tense simplification only when I use a conditional clause or a clause of time and I have been taught in that case the tense simplification is imperative, so I have thought only in that cases the simplification is imperative.

CalifJim · Answer

park sang joonThen, can I use #1 and #2 at will?

Yes, and also "would have been clear".

park sang joonI have used the tense simplification only when I use a conditional clause or a clause of time and I have been taught in that case the tense simplification is imperative, so I have thought only in that cases the simplification is imperative.

I am not familiar with these rules. In a conditional clause it is probably better not to simplify, but in a time clause it seems to me that it is probably better to simplify. In any case it is better not to speak in generalities. Example sentences would help, especially since many people have completely different ideas about the meaning of "simplify a clause".

CJ

Park sang joon · Answer

Thank you, Mr.Jim, for your quick and concrete answer

If don't mind, might I post the examples extracted from "Oxford Practical English Usage 3rd Edition"?

CalifJim · Answer

park sang joonmight I post the examples extracted from "Oxford Practical English Usage 3rd Edition"?

Examples of what they call "tense simplification in subordinate clauses"? Sure. As long as there aren't a thousand of them.

CJ

Park sang joon · Answer

<Source : In "tense simplification in subordinate clauses" of "Oxford Practical English Usage 3rd Edition">
I think you might have the same book as mine or newer version.

1) You'll find Coca-Cola wherever you go (not wherever you will go)
2) He would never do anything that went against his conscience. (More natural than ... that would go against his conscience.)
3) I hadn't understood what she said. (More natural than ... what she had said)
4) I'll write to her when I have time. (not when I will have time.)
5) I'll think of you when I'm lying on the beach next week. (not when I will be lying...)
6) I'll phone you when I've finished. (not when I will have finished.)
7) At the end of the year there will be an exam on everything you've studied. (not every thing you will have studied.)
8) If I had lots of money, I would give some to anybody who asked for it.
(not who would ask for it.)
9) Would you follow me wherever I went? (not wherever I would go?)
10) In a perfect world, you would be able to say exactly what you thought. (not what you would think.)
11) He probably crashed because he had gone to sleep while he was driving. (More natural than ... while he had been driving.)

CalifJim · Answer

park sang joonI think you might have the same book as mine or newer version.

No, I do not.

1) You'll find Coca-Cola wherever you go (not wherever you will go)
2) He would never do anything that went against his conscience. (More natural than ... that would go against his conscience.)
3) I hadn't understood what she said. (More natural than ... what she had said)
4) I'll write to her when I have time. (not when I will have time.)
5) I'll think of you when I'm lying on the beach next week. (not when I will be lying...)
6) I'll phone you when I've finished. (not when I will have finished.)
7) At the end of the year there will be an exam on everything you've studied. (not every thing you will have studied.)
8) If I had lots of money, I would give some to anybody who asked for it.
(not who would ask for it.)
9) Would you follow me wherever I went? (not wherever I would go?)
10) In a perfect world, you would be able to say exactly what you thought. (not what you would think.)
11) He probably crashed because he had gone to sleep while he was driving. (More natural than ... while he had been driving.)

A. We almost never use "will" after when, as soon as, once, before, after, until, unless, if, whenever, wherever, etc. This explains 1, 4, 5, 6. The same applies to "would" in the past (9).
B. We don't normally repeat "will", "would", or auxiliary "had" when it has already been used in the main clause. (2, 3, 7, 8, 10, 11)

CJ

Park sang joon · Answer

Thank you, Mr.Jim for your concrete answer.

wherever

I didn't know a 'wherever' clause has the obligation of the tense simplification.
What about 'while'? - 11

You have classified a noun clause and relative clause as the category 'B'. - 3, 7, 8, and 10
How about a noun clause or relative clause?; don't these have the obligation of the tense simplification?

CalifJim · Answer

park sang joontense simplification

First of all I should say that I have not heard the term "tense simplification" used for these kinds of examples. To me, they are just rules on usage, especially when it comes to the use of "when" with "will" or "would", which is generally just regarded as "forbidden" without any reference to "tense simplification". In other words, I have never before come across the idea that the tense used after "when" is actually one tense, but that it must be replaced by a simpler tense. This conceptualization of the topic is completely new to me.

For this reason I'm having some trouble answering your questions regarding whether "simplification" is obligatory or not in any given case. I have never studied English grammar from this point of view.

park sang joonI didn't know a 'wherever' clause has the obligation of the tense simplification.

I say so only on the basis of introspection into sentences I've constructed mentally. I can't come up with any sentence where a clause that starts with an -ever word (whoever, whatever, whenever, wherever) contains "will", for example. You might research this through the British corpus or the American one (COCA) or through fraze.it. You may be able to confirm my suspicions or find a counterexample or two. I'll leave that to you as an exercise.

park sang joonWhat about 'while'? - 11

I'm less certain about that one. Again, research is needed.

park sang joonHow about a noun clause or relative clause?; don't these have the obligation of the tense simplification?

On those, Oxford has not said "not", but "not as natural", so I would say that the unsimplified forms may be possible, if unidiomatic in some cases. My guess is that in my own speech and writing I treat these simplifications as obligatory, but that doesn't mean that everyone does the same in all cases.

CJ

Park sang joon · Answer

Thank you, Mr.Jim, for your valuable and informative opinions.

wherever
You might research this through the British corpus or the American one (COCA) or through fraze.it. You may be able to confirm my suspicions or find a counterexample or two. I'll leave that to you as an exercise.
while
I'm less certain about that one. Again, research is needed.

I don't know how to use British corpus or COCA, but I will try to.

Tense simplification in subordinate clauses

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