Tense

Question

Hi,
Here you can read an article of a newspaper about new year's plans (2009 plans) which the state owned companies reported to the president on December 30, 2008.

The ministry said it was the first time that state-owned companies simultaneously presented their plans for the following year to the president and underscores the urgency of the situation.
“This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started,” said an official at the Finance Ministry.

I think 'before a new year started' should be 'before a new year starts'.
Am I wrong?

Thank you in advance.

Madhulk · Accepted Answer

Well since this is an article then reported speech should be used.
Hence it really should be Past Simple not Present Simple.
In reported speech Present Simple goes into Past Simple in order to
paraphrase the statement.

HanJH · Answer

Thank you for your comment.
But I still need more explanation.
Could anyone else help me?

CalifJim · Answer

HanJHThis is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started,

The auxiliary has is dropped because it has already been used (in the form have) previously in the sentence:

This is ... first time ... such plans have been designed even before a new year (has) started.

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

HanJHThis is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started

Here's an alternate explanation.

The reference is to any year in the past that may have started without such plans, so the past tense is appropriate.

This is saying that in the past we never designed such plans before a new year started.

CJ

HanJH · Answer

Thank you CJ.
Happy new year.

Verb_aTIM · Answer

HanJHHi,

“This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started,” said an official at the Finance Ministry.

I think 'before a new year started' should be 'before a new year starts'.
Am I wrong?

Hi HanJH.
Yes, you are wrong. Because the phrase "before a new year started", is dependent, that is, that its structure depends from the independent phrase, which commands the grammatical structure of the whole statement.

"... such plans have been designed -----independent phrase, also known as main clause.
even before a new year started,” ----dependent phrase. (Most of dependent clauses are Subjunctive, 'cause they are not "real time").

Since, the main clause is written in Past Perfect Tense in the Passive Voice, writing the independent phrase in present tense, wouldn't match the main clause which commands the statement.

TIM.

Mister Micawber · Answer

.
"This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started,” said an official at the Finance Ministry.

There is no past perfect verb form in that sentence, and the verb tenses of independent clauses do not command the tenses of their dependent clauses: I will buy you a bicycle before you are ten. I bought him a bicycle before Obama has been inaugurated.

In addition to CJs options, you may consider that native speakers tend to regress the dependent verb even though the condition still obtains at the present moment-- but it remains a speaker's choice. Our operational sentence is the one within quotation marks; since it is a direct quote, the 'said' clause is irrelevant. These are all valid ways to make the statement with the same intent-- presuming that New Year's Day is still in the speaker's future (notice that the main verb 'have been started' is a present form):

This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year started
This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year has started
This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year starts
.

HanJH · Answer

Thank you, all.

Verb_aTIM · Answer

Hi Mr. Micawber.

When you say that " the main verb 'have been started' is a present form", You are Right and I am Wrong, because it is indeed a present form.

But, when you say:
"This is also the first time that such plans have been designed even before a new year starts",

and you say it is the "speaker's choice", I must say you're totally wrong,

"Cause there's no way in the world (of Logic) that two sentences have their verbs operating in real time, at the same time!

And it is easily tested. Just putting the fragment "even a new year starts" in the beginning of the statement:

" Even before a new year starts,
...such plans have been designed."

Which is absolutelly inappropiated. Since you say "even before", we are no longer speaking in real time.

Honestly, TIM.

.

Mister Micawber · Answer

.

Cause there's no way in the world (of Logic) that two sentences have their verbs operating in real time, at the same time!

'Honestly' isn't enough, Tim. Please provide a reference for this statement.
.

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