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Usenet Posted 22 years ago
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Sweet's Victorian pronunciation
I've been interested to compare my 1961 edition of Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer with my father's 1931 version. (Many AUE readers may well revere the awkward Henry Sweet's memory without explanation from me, even if they have reservations about his A-S Primer! They and others may know he was also rumored to be the original of Shaw's Professor Higgins.)
The 1931 is merely a reprint of the 1905 eighth edition, revised from the 1882 original, as far as I know by the author. What struck me most forcibly were two of the hints on pronunciation.
For a-macron he unsurprisingly gives father as a modern example; but for short a he gives ask . A look in OED1 does nothing to resolve my confusion, since it gives three "a" sounds: one equivalent to the French a-grave; one as in man ; and the third as in pass and chant . For ask it gives an unmarked "pass" vowel; and for father , a long-marked "French a-grave" vowel.
Does anybody know how many London-and-Oxford Victorians used the short a in ask ? And did OED really mean that about the French a-grave?
What surprised me even more was this on the palatal c ("c-with-a-dot"): "...= kj, a k formed in the j (English y) position, nearly as in the old-fashioned pron(unciation) of sky ..."
What was this "old-fashioned" pronunciation of sky ?
Mike.
The 1931 is merely a reprint of the 1905 eighth edition, revised from the 1882 original, as far as I know by the author. What struck me most forcibly were two of the hints on pronunciation.
For a-macron he unsurprisingly gives father as a modern example; but for short a he gives ask . A look in OED1 does nothing to resolve my confusion, since it gives three "a" sounds: one equivalent to the French a-grave; one as in man ; and the third as in pass and chant . For ask it gives an unmarked "pass" vowel; and for father , a long-marked "French a-grave" vowel.
Does anybody know how many London-and-Oxford Victorians used the short a in ask ? And did OED really mean that about the French a-grave?
What surprised me even more was this on the palatal c ("c-with-a-dot"): "...= kj, a k formed in the j (English y) position, nearly as in the old-fashioned pron(unciation) of sky ..."
What was this "old-fashioned" pronunciation of sky ?
Mike.
Top answer
[nq:1]I've been interested to compare my 1961 edition of Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer with my father's 1931 version. (Many AUE readers ... [/nq] I know nothing about this, but I thought I'd mention that NPR recently played a recording of Sir Herbert Beerbohm Tree reciting the "To be or not to be" speech from about 100 years ago.
- [nq:1]I've been interested to compare my 1961 edition of Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer with my father's 1931 version.
- (Many AUE readers ...
- [/nq] I know nothing about this, but I thought I'd mention that NPR recently played a recording of Sir Herbert Beerbohm Tree reciting the "To be or not to be" speech from about 100 years ago.
- What stood out the most for me was that his /oU/ as in "nobler" was almost the same as mine, not the (@U) or (EU) that I think of as RP.
- Did the RP "long o" develop during the last century, or was Tree as a Shakespearian actor using a conservative or a "mid-Atlantic" pronunciation, or what?
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6 Answers
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[nq:1]I've been interested to compare my 1961 edition of Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer with my father's 1931 version. (Many AUE readers ... as in the old-fashioned ****(unciation) of sky ..." What was this "old-fashioned" pronunciation of sky ?[/nq]
I know nothing about this, but I thought I'd mention that NPR recently played a recording of Sir Herbert Beerbohm Tree reciting the "To be or not to
I know nothing about this, but I thought I'd mention that NPR recently played a recording of Sir Herbert Beerbohm Tree reciting the "To be or not to
00
(about Henry Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer)
[nq:1]For a-macron he unsurprisingly gives father as a modern example; but for short a he gives ask ... London-and-Oxford Victorians used the short a in ask ? And did OED really mean that about the French a-grave?[/nq]
I seem to remember a1a, who is said to be a speaker of RP, claiming to have 2 different short a sounds, which I took to be
[nq:1]For a-macron he unsurprisingly gives father as a modern example; but for short a he gives ask ... London-and-Oxford Victorians used the short a in ask ? And did OED really mean that about the French a-grave?[/nq]
I seem to remember a1a, who is said to be a speaker of RP, claiming to have 2 different short a sounds, which I took to be
00
[nq:1]I know nothing about this, but I thought I'd mention that NPR recently played a recording of Sir Herbert Beerbohm ... during the last century, or was Tree as a Shakespearian actor using a conservative or a "mid-Atlantic" pronunciation, or what?[/nq]
The RP (@U) is apparently a 20th century development, yes. This article by John Wells
The RP (@U) is apparently a 20th century development, yes. This article by John Wells
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[nq:1]I've been interested to compare my 1961 edition of Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer with my father's 1931 version. (Many AUE readers ... a long-marked "French a-grave" vowel. Does anybody know how many London-and-Oxford Victorians used the short a in ask ?[/nq]
I think it's unlikely that a modern English short A (as in "cat") was intended. Based on the transcriptions of Old English in Crystal'
I think it's unlikely that a modern English short A (as in "cat") was intended. Based on the transcriptions of Old English in Crystal'
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[nq:1]I seem to remember a1a, who is said to be a speaker of RP,[/nq]
'Said'? He's the Donor!
[nq:1]claiming to have 2 different short a sounds, which I took to be
'Said'? He's the Donor!
[nq:1]claiming to have 2 different short a sounds, which I took to be
00
[nq:1][/nq]
[nq:2]I know nothing about this, but I thought I'd mention ... Shakespearianactor using a conservative or a "mid-Atlantic" pronunciation, or what?[/nq]
[nq:1]The RP (@U) is apparently a 20th century development, yes. Thisarticle by John Wells http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/rphappe
[nq:2]I know nothing about this, but I thought I'd mention ... Shakespearianactor using a conservative or a "mid-Atlantic" pronunciation, or what?[/nq]
[nq:1]The RP (@U) is apparently a 20th century development, yes. Thisarticle by John Wells http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/rphappe
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