Subject-verb agreement

Question

Hello,While searching for the word 'leavenous', I found the following text with an obvious grammar violation for using the phrase 'one or two is' (subject-verb disagreement, proximity rule)."But alas, it is so obscured by the ugly, leavenous dung of human commands, statues, and glosses, that scarcely one or two is found in a thousand who have caught the true sense and meaning of the heavenly birth, to say nothing of the active nature, power, properties, and fruits of it."  The New Birth by Menno Simons - c. 1537 [revised c. 1550]  - http://www.bluffton.edu/~humanities/2/newbirth.htm. However, when I searched for the phrase 'One or two is', I was surprised to see many reputable sites and books support it. Could it be an exception in Engish language?--------------------------------------------------Here are a list of a few sites among many that use the phrase 'One or two is" in their text:http:// news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/letter_from_america/3639019.stmhttp:// languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=738http:// journalism.berkeley.edu/ngno/reports/newworld/immigrants.htmlhttp:// adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1985A%26A...144..506Vhttp:// worldhistoryconnected.press.illinois.edu/1.2/everdell.htmlhttp:// www2.med.umich.edu/umguidelines/Patient_Exercise_Book.pdfhttp:// en.wikibooks.org/wiki/SAASTE_Technology/Modules/Processing_Grade_8-9http:// www.brookfieldengineering.com/support/faq.asp http:// www.greentimbers.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=145&Itemid=35http:// eqseis.geosc.psu.edu/~cammon/HTML/Classes/PhysicalGeology/Notes/Chapter07/P01.htmlThanks,VUSHCM

Avangi · Accepted Answer

I don't know what the party line is on this one, but I sometimes think of "one or two" as a fixed expression. At other times I don't.

I can only give you one or two. (reply) One or two is fine. / One or two is not acceptable!

If you correct my sentence to "I can give you only one or two," it's less convincing.

Your references may include both types. I didn't go through them.
Perhaps someone else will check them, or will have a definitive answer.

I wonder if rather than applying the proximity rule, we might treat it as being an expression similar to "a few." "A few is not enough." "A few swans were swimming about in the pool."

- A.

Vushcm · Answer

Dear Avangi,

Could you please elaborate? I don't have the fine sense necessary to tell the two sentences of yours apart. Apparently, the position of the word 'only' does convey different meanings per your examples. Did you treat in one case as 'either .. or'; and in the other case as 'a group'?

Please share with me the nuance in meaning regarding the position of the word 'only'.

Thanks,
VUSHCM

Avangi · Answer

I'm not sure I can answer you in an authoratative way.
Sometimes the "rules" on number agreement are quite liberal - sometimes not.
Sometimes what "sounds good" seems to be a consideration.

The correct placement of "only" is a separate issue, but I felt it had an effect on the meaning of the phrase. Placing it before the verb is incorrect, because it seems to modify the verb. This error crept into my style at an early age, and I must constantly guard against it.

I can only give you one or two. I can't take you to the movies.
I can give you only one or two. I can't give you three or four.

The first one means "This is what I can do." Incorrect though it may be, the focus is more on the verb than on the numbers. Therefore, it's easy to take "one or two" as an expression like "a few."

In the second one, by placing "only" (where it belongs) directly in front of the numbers, it makes the numbers seem more like numbers in the exact sense.
"One or two are fine" might be the better answer in this case.

scarcely one or two is found in a thousand

As I get more deeply into this, I realize that there's another factor at play here which may actually be the controlling one: Do we consider it an amount, or do we consider it a number?

The choice of verb makes a difference in this respect.
If I say, "One or two was/were found," we're really thinking of the number, and "were" is the better choice. This is a transitive verb, used passively. It almost seems like a compound subject.

If I say, "One or two is/are okay," it seems more like an amount. I believe "is" is the better answer. This is the "being" verb with an adjective complement.

It would be great if someone else would give an opinion on this!

Best wishes, - A.

Vushcm · Answer

Thank you so much for your sharing, Avangi!

Reading your explanation - word by word, sentence by sentence - I believe I understand your message. However, for an ESL person, the complexity of English nuances is just overwhelming!

With warmest regards,
VUSHCM

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